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Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

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Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#491

Post by eru »

idiotsecant wrote: post #456
slt2021 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until you mentioned unions. tech is fundamentally incompatible with unions for several reasons: 1. it will drive down the wages and give power to just another bureacracy 2. Union participation does not differentiate between highly skilled (and sought after) tech worker, from mediocre tech worker who gets by using copilot and chatgpt 3. I dont need union to negotiate with company on my behalf - I can ne…

You're taking a remarkably short sighted position here. Blacksmiths and cobblers were once highly in demand workers as well. Do you really think writing code is such a special beautiful skill that it's immune to the same forces of automation? Software development is a trade skill, like any other. We're in a very brief window of time where it's a very lucrative skill to have. Don't expect that to last forever. When th…

> You're taking a remarkably short sighted position here. Blacksmiths and cobblers were once highly in demand workers as well. Do you really think writing code is such a special beautiful skill that it's immune to the same forces of automation?

No, but that's not required for the argument. Do you think any amount of unionisation would have forced society to keep lots of well paid blacksmiths and cobblers around?

(And if the answer to that is Yes, isn't that an argument against tolerating unions?)

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#492

Post by s1artibartfast »

LastTrain wrote: post #487
revel wrote: post #412

There are some really profound misunderstandings of how bankruptcy and credit work in this thread. Creditors are ranked by seniority and get paid out in order by seniority. Equity is below every creditor and has been completely wiped out. Companies are not allowed to take cash or sell the furniture to pay out employees. That money is legally owed to creditors and attempting to stiff them is theft. I'm sorry to those…

Not paying employees for work already rendered is wage theft, which is actual theft.

you cant prosecute a dead entity for theft.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#493

Post by eru »

slt2021 wrote: post #470
idiotsecant wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break it to you but if your job is automatable it won't be you reaping the benefits, it will be the people who have the most capital to deploy automating. That ain't you buddy, sorry. Your world view is basically peak HN techbro-iterianisim. I hope you never get the opportunity to experience exactly how wrong you are.

it shows that you have zero experience in automation, because no high value job is fully automatable. Human augmented+automation will always be more superior/flexible/valuable and large corporations with a lot of capital will never be able to be as flexible and nimble for all customers and all their use cases, as a small player like myself can be

I want to agree with you, but:

> it shows that you have zero experience in automation, because no high value job is fully automatable.

That's sort-of a tautology. What used to be a high value job can become a lower value job with some automation, and then be automated completely later.

Up to about a hundred years ago, many reasonably well-off people in the US and Europe used to have domestic servants. Those jobs could go to fairly high levels of skills and value. Nimbleness was rewarded. (But to be fair, they also could go down to pretty menial labour.)

Nowadays even really well-off people barely have any domestic servants. Instead they have dishwashers and vacuum cleaners and order their food delivered to their doorstep, and perhaps hire a part time cleaner for a few hours a week.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#496

Post by HWR_14 »

revel wrote: post #412

There are some really profound misunderstandings of how bankruptcy and credit work in this thread. Creditors are ranked by seniority and get paid out in order by seniority. Equity is below every creditor and has been completely wiped out. Companies are not allowed to take cash or sell the furniture to pay out employees. That money is legally owed to creditors and attempting to stiff them is theft. I'm sorry to those…

While in general what you are saying is true, employees owed wages are the highest seniority of creditor. As long as you were selling furniture for reasonable prices to make payroll, you should be fine.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#497

Post by jessriedel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #492
LastTrain wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not paying employees for work already rendered is wage theft, which is actual theft.

you cant prosecute a dead entity for theft.

Courts can pierce the corporate veil for failure to pay employees.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#498

Post by eru »

vidarh wrote: post #475
cma wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if all the SWEs at all these VCs backed companies went on strike unless the laid off Convoy employees got six months of healthcare (it would have been in the initial employment contract). Congress made secondary strikes illegal a long time ago. Maybe it would still be OK since that wouldn't technically be cross-industry; I'm not sure.

There was a time when US unions striked despite being met by a risk of people getting outright murdered. Without hyperbole, the 8 hour working day was won with blood. The question needs to be whether you think a strike is right and morally justified, and worth the potential consequences, not whether it is legal.

Leisure and comforts like the eight hour workday are what economists call a 'normal good'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_good

> In economics, a normal good is a type of a good which experiences an increase in demand due to an increase in income, unlike inferior goods, for which the opposite is observed. When there is an increase in a person's income, for example due to a wage rise, a good for which the demand rises due to the wage increase, is referred as a normal good. Conversely, the demand for normal goods declines when the income decreases, for example due to a wage decrease or layoffs.

It's entirely expected that people will want to consume more comfort and safety at their income increases.

If you compare different countries, you will find that these kinds of things track with income much more than with history of union activism.

For a striking example see https://pseudoerasmus.com/2017/10/02/ijd/ which is an article on the divergence between Japan and India. Japan has a long history of labour repression, especially compared to India. But by and large Japanese workers have a it a lot better today than workers in India, especially if you go by what's happening in reality and not just by what's promised on paper.

And that difference tracks with the difference in incomes between the two countries, but stands in stark contrast to what we would expect from your sketched theory of union activism driving these things.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#499

Post by mktexprt »

LastTrain wrote: post #487
revel wrote: post #412

There are some really profound misunderstandings of how bankruptcy and credit work in this thread. Creditors are ranked by seniority and get paid out in order by seniority. Equity is below every creditor and has been completely wiped out. Companies are not allowed to take cash or sell the furniture to pay out employees. That money is legally owed to creditors and attempting to stiff them is theft. I'm sorry to those…

Not paying employees for work already rendered is wage theft, which is actual theft.

[flagged]

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#500

Post by balderdash »

dboreham wrote: post #192
benced wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-Convoy employee here: if a company is shutting down, it obviously can't provide severance. It's not a matter of class or not.

> if a company is shutting down, it obviously can't provide severance Not really true. The company is owned by its shareholders, and they may choose to use funds belonging to the company (after paying outstanding obligations) to pay severance, or they may divide the funds among themselves. If there are no funds, they can choose to invest more to pay severance. Obviously they're unlikely to want to do that, but it's n…

Ehh, talk to a lawyer, but at certain point, often before technical bankruptcy/insolvency, mgmt/board actually have an obligation to the creditors, not shareholders (as they are no longer the beneficiaries)
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