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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#491

Post by skitout »

ilyt wrote: post #436
skitout wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They indeed sometimes destroyed some properties But you cannot blame them for the violence in the protest they co-organized. People are free to attend the protest, and they cannot control them. They never called for violence against police. And most protest now in France have some people fighting with the police. The same way you can see firefighters throwing stuff (including petanque ball) to police during firefighe…

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

So we should forbid firefighter and farmer's union ? And all leftist union ? And we should forbid any protest where people using black block technique could agree with ?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#492

Post by skitout »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #474
mistermann wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone is a catalyst, I don't see how it logically and necessarily follows that 100% of the causal responsibility falls on them. This seems objectively reductive and represents ideological beliefs as objective facts. Maybe the masses are upset and this is a sign of things to come, that should be listened to.

Myself, I'm a peaceful guy, if every protest I called (assuming I'm a "leader" of cause $INSERT_CAUSE_HERE ) resulted in violence, I would not call any more protests because that would go against my personal values. So it's hard to believe a group is peaceful if every time they have a protest it turns into a riot.

Then you could not organize any "leftist" protest in France :-) Note that they do destroy stuff, they just don't call violence against people. And definitely don't turn in riot every time

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#493

Post by egberts1 »

Will it be paving the way of replacing French government with a sixth form of republic or a 25th form of a government?

I mean, we all know that president dissolving the parliment/congress/house is an unworkable mechanism for a sustainable government.

A government that is afraid of its citizens is the right kind of governance: it keeps them within their expected functions: "expected" is the operative word.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#494

Post by ilyt »

skitout wrote: post #491
ilyt wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

So we should forbid firefighter and farmer's union ? And all leftist union ? And we should forbid any protest where people using black block technique could agree with ?

I think as long as most of the protests don't end up in violence and shop lootings they could stay.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#495

Post by pjerem »

nolok wrote: post #144
marvin wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government; the 6th in its history. Many current problems stem from the fact that post-war mechanisms written into the governmental system are abused by the president and elected leaders. E.g. presidential overruling of parlamental votes.

> I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government First, this is not "well-educated French acquaintences" so much as it is supporters of Melanchon's LFI political party, who explicitely campaign on the idea of ending the 5th republic to start a 6th where all problem would be magically solved. Second, the reason I hate his proposal, is because he…

I’m sorry but it’s more than the left. Even right and centrists people who were ok with the retirement reform are saying that they don’t accept how it have been forced on the parliament.

It was one of the most important and most protested reform of the last decades and the president / government used every constitutional breach they could to avoid any vote from people's representatives.

Charles de Courson, who tried to force the vote by proposing an abrogation of the law to the parliament is not really a leftist, he was even going to vote himself in favor of the reform.

We, the French, elected a parliament where Macron didn’t have the absolute majority and Macron tries everything he can to avoid the parliament when he know he will not have enough votes. It’s a democracy crisis wether you are from the left or from the right because Macron is interpreting the constitution like he can dismissal the parliament when he wants although most French didn’t vote for his party.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#496

Post by pjerem »

627467 wrote: post #489
csomar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As others have mentioned, context matters a lot. No, it does not. While this group is indeed suspicious, detaining them without a proof (and using whatsapp as your proof) opens a serious precedent. Now anyone can be detain for that. And it'll be used for serious suspicious cases later but also will be used against someone like you because someone in the police didn't like how you walk.

How does "police didn't like how you walk" is similar to "demonstrably returned radicalized from a ongoing warzone"?

Because they have not been arrested officially because they returned from a war zone (it’s suspicious but not illegal) but because they used cryptography.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#497

Post by AmericanChopper »

dredmorbius wrote: post #480
AmericanChopper wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monopoly on violence is the central component of the power of the state. This case undermines that power as much as violence used in self defence does, and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are.

The monopoly is on the legitimate claim to force, and is based on Max Weber. David Runciman has an excellent explanation of this in the "Talking Politics" podcast which I recommend unreservedly: https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership > (Specific segment occurs ~15 minutes in.)

That podcast does have an interesting explanation of the idea, and Max Weber did provide interesting insights into it. But the governments exerting monopolistic control over violence (to differing levels at different times and places) goes back basically as far as organised society does. The legitimate claim to violence in self defence is just as ubiquitous and has always been at least philosophically at odds with the claim of the state. With that contention arise from the fact that a claim to violence in self defence must either arise from a failure of the state to perform its duties in upholding law and order, or a failure of the individual to follow the law. With the potential for controversy arising from the fact that it’s largely the state who gets to decide whether it was at fault, or if the individual in question was.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#498

Post by chabes »

ilyt wrote: post #494
skitout wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we should forbid firefighter and farmer's union ? And all leftist union ? And we should forbid any protest where people using black block technique could agree with ?

I think as long as most of the protests don't end up in violence and shop lootings they could stay.

That’s not how protests work though, is it?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#499

Post by quadcore »

ilyt wrote: post #436
skitout wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They indeed sometimes destroyed some properties But you cannot blame them for the violence in the protest they co-organized. People are free to attend the protest, and they cannot control them. They never called for violence against police. And most protest now in France have some people fighting with the police. The same way you can see firefighters throwing stuff (including petanque ball) to police during firefighe…

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

If we'd implement what you says, you'd just found a way to systematically prevent protests. Doesnt work.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#500

Post by charonn0 »

progbits wrote: post #208
junon wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. So even if the judge knows their ruling could be the worst of several options, they're boxed into doing so because it's the law?

Judges are not there to come up with the law, only to execute it.

In the USA at least, it's the executive that executes laws. Judges interpret them.
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