Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#491

Post by AlphaCharlie » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #481

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

As an aging millennial that grew up in West Texas, I have the exact opposite feelings. To me cars, equal freedom. I grew up in a small neighborhood, I rode bikes to my friends houses there but my neighborhood was so far removed from other places and stores that there was no other place to go. Getting my license at 16 opened so many doors for me. Now I could go hang out at my other friends houses that lived 10-15 mile…

Do you live in a low density area?

I think your point of view aligns well with the idea that increased density and good alternative transit options lead to less need and want for cars.

But rural and isolated areas can’t live without a car (or a credible alternative).

As much as I’d like car to disappear, there’s a lot of use of it that we can’t replace without severely altering some of the population’s quality of life

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#492

Post by ghaff » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #436

ghaff wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicles in areas of the country with snow and salt also used to routinely rust out in about 5 years.

That 18-year old CR-V lived its entire life in snowy New England (upstate NY, then NH, now MA) and it is likely that it will be retired because of rust rather than a mechanical cause, though it will be well over 20 years old at that point. Prior to the 1980s, very few car makers used galvanized steel. After the 1980s, most cars are galvanized, meaning they'll stay structurally sound in the snow belt far longer than b…

Yeah, I'm mostly talking about pre-80s.

That said, with my 1997 Honda del Sol that I got rid of a few years ago, the mechanics at the dealer took to coming over and looking at it because they said there were very few on the road any longer because the wheel well rusted out. (I had garaged mine in the winter for a number of years.)

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#493

Post by stuckinhell » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I'm an aging millennial as well.

I love having a car! I can't imagine not having a car when you have KIDS! Driving them to their various sports games, with a car full of their equipment. Going camping with them. Getting groceries for a family of 5.

I can't imagine doing that on public transport.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#494

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #246

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I think a lot of younger people who choose to live in a city, especially new grads, are essentially continuing their college experience. A lot of friends probably live in the city too. They can often bum transportation/do joint activities from friends who do own cars and are mostly fine with minimizing out of city activities that require a car. They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in te…

> jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago.

Really? There was plenty of tech in Kendall Sq area within an easy walk from the T. I worked for three different companies in that area and regularly walked from a couple of different apartments (generally leaving my car in the company parking garage).

It might have been impossible to do that in tech in other cities, but Boston/Cambridge has been strong for 3+ decades.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#495

Post by warner25 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

Excellent post. My car is a Prius, at the lowest trim model, that I bought when I graduated from college 15 years ago. I "love it" in the sense that I love how cheap and reliable it has been. I totally view it as an appliance to get me from A to B with minimal fuss. And for the past ten years, my wife and I have largely organized our life to minimize how much time we spend driving around. We've spent a good portion of our marriage sharing the Prius as our only car.

My Boomer parents, on the other hand, own five or six cars, including several Corvettes and still go on long drives just for fun. We just can't understand each other.

I also live in a place now that has a "car culture," like people come to visit for races and car shows, and to do scenic drives in their exotic Ferrari and Lamborghini sports cars. To a first approximation, it's all Boomers.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#496

Post by MengerSponge » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

Driving is a luxury, and should be priced accordingly

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#497

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

HPsquared wrote: post #464

throwaway71271 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the netherlands people just bike or take public transport, most of the time its faster than car (up to 12km or so bike is actually much faster) walk is actually fine as well

I don't understand how bike can be faster than car. Does it take a long time to get parked or something?

The average speed for a car in cities is often under 20km/hour, especially in rush-hour. My average commute is 9km, I do that in just shy of 30 minutes, so something approaching 20km/hour. Plus, with the bike, I can take a few shortcuts that are unavailable to a car. I also park right in front of the building on both ends. My commute is faster and more predictable by bike than by car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#498

Post by Aunche » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #182

hgomersall wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point... If you reject car ownership and the associated commute etc, you structure your life around that. You get a job and a house that are compatible with that philosophy. As a couple, neither of you would have a job that requires you to commute such distances.

Couldn't think of a better argument for why most people do not reject cars. Restricting your employment options to a small, say cyclable area around where you live can be extremely limiting for your employment opportunities, especially if you have a partner that also works. Especially considering the point another commenter said that oftentimes central business districts where the best jobs are can be prohibitively e…

>Restricting your employment options to a small, say cyclable area around where you live can be extremely limiting for your employment opportunities

You're missing the forest for the trees. If you live in a mid-sized city in the Netherlands and want to limit yourself to a 1 hour commute by public transit, there are just as many, if not more opportunities than if you live in a mid sized city in the US like Richmond because the Netherlands is that much denser, and transit optimizes for commercial centers. The difference that in the Netherlands, you still have the option of commuting by car, whereas, in the US you'd have to move.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#499

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #489

sokoloff wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of reliable 15-year old cars. (My wife drives a reliable 18-year old, 225K mile car. We took it on a 1600 mile roundtrip for the winter holidays this year with no particular fear that it wouldn't run like a top for the entire trip.) The idea that cars are only reliable for 5 years and 60K miles is, IMO and IME, quite out-dated. That was more true in the days of carburetors, points-based ignition, and…

I should also point out, and this is something I only learned recently, you can't get a car loan for a car that's over 10 years old. About five years ago my mechanic told me there was a Lexus I needed to look at. Single (obsessive) owner, extremely low miles for the year, extremely clean, my mechanic had done all the work since the time the vehicle was no longer under the Lexus service and warranty. The catch? It was…

An inability to get a loan on them would tend to make cars over 10 years artificially cheap/a better value than otherwise.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#500

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #343

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

> As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked...

Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too.

Too see the other side, it may be useful to think of a personal car as home-like transportation infrastructure and always using public transit like living full-time in hostels.