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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#491

Post by mrguyorama »

paxys wrote: post #233
jlv2 wrote: post #154

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

The majority of "actual recalls" is you taking your car to the dealership and them plugging into the diagnostic port and running one line of code. So this one is the same, just that Tesla is able to do it over the air.

Don't forget how many recalls are "Next time you replace this part, it will be replaced with a new version that doesn't have the defect" or how many recalls are "A tech will look at the part and then do nothing because your part is fine" or "A tech will weld the part that is currently on your truck" or "Be aware this part may fail ahead of schedule and if it does it will suck, but you don't technically have to replace it right now so we don't have to cover the cost"

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#492

Post by enslavedrobot »

Veserv wrote: post #130
enslavedrobot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same experience. I think if there was more transparency in the data around FSD related accidents the conversation would be different. The last evidence we have is Tesla stating that there have been no fatalities in 60 million miles of driving under FSD. Pretty good so far.

There is no such evidence beyond unsupported proclamations by the vendor who, by the way, has compulsively misrepresented the capabilities of the product for years. The only evidence available that is not completely tainted by a complete conflict of interest is basically Youtube videos and self reported information [1] by investors and super fans that on average show critical driving errors every few minutes and even…

Absolutely need more data, but if a public company makes untruthful claims about the past they are in big trouble. They are mostly free to make claims about the future without much consequence.

This is why startups are allowed to project massive sales next year but Elizabeth Holmes is headed to jail.

If it turns out that FSD has had a fatal crash and Tesla lied about it Musk is headed to jail too.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#493

Post by heleninboodler »

dtheodor wrote: post #415
varjag wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hardly similar as the state of a typical computer program can be meaningfully inspected, allowing both useful insights for adversarial test setups and designing comprehensive formal tests.

Right, if you consider the internal state, it is hardly similar. You talked about black box and QA though. Black box by definition holds the internal state as irrelevant, and QA mostly treats the software it tests as a black box, or in other words the tests are "superficial" as you call it.

Black box testing in typical software is, however, less superficial, because the tester can make inferences and predictions about what inputs will affect the results. When you're testing a drawing program, for example, you may not know how the rectangle tool actually works internally, but you can make some pretty educated guesses about what types of inputs and program state affect its behavior. If the whole thing is controlled by a neural network with a staggering amount of internal state, the connections you can draw are much, much more tenuous, and consequently the confidence in your test methodology is significantly harder to come by.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#494

Post by saudade97 »

The amount of Tesla apologism in HN is nasueasting. Per the NHTSA, a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards. On its face, Tesla's situation clearly calls out for classification as a recall.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#495

Post by vel0city »

kevincox wrote: post #31
millzlane wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noone is waking you for your stop lol.

You could set an alarm. Worst case there is a delay and you wake up slightly early. The subway isn't going to magically go significantly faster.

I've missed trains that left a station ahead of schedule by a minute or two in my regional metro system. I've also had busses go past a bus stop earlier than the posted time.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#496

Post by mcguire »

JoshCole wrote: post #411
panick21_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowlage of Tesla internal QA processes, any kind of source at all? Based on there presentation, they for sure have a whole load of tests, many built directly from real world situation that the car has to handle. They simulate sensor input based on the simulation and check the car does the right thing. They very likely have some internal test drivers and before the software goes public it goes to t…

I strongly feel people ought to have these discussions while consistently citing actual data sources relevant to the discussion. For example, did you predict, based on the speculation of Tesla being incompetent with regard to safety, that they have the lowest probability of injury scores of any car manufacturer? Because they do. Did you predict, based on speculation about Elon Musk's incompetence in predicting that s…

As any Tesla supporter will tell you, Autopilot != FSD.

(Is Autopilot still limited to divided, limited access highways? Those are significantly safer than other roadways.)

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#497

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

linsomniac wrote: post #433
alberth wrote: post #271

Dumb question: why would anyone sign-up for a beta program, that could kill you if gone wrong? (maybe people just don't think through ramifications)

How would the FSD beta program kill me? I realize that not everybody is in agreement, but I personally use the FSD beta while remaining fully in control of the vehicle. I steer with it, I watch the road conditions, I check my blind spots when it is changing lanes, I hit the accelerator if it is slowing unexpectedly, I hit the brakes if it is not... You know, basically behaving exactly as the terms you have to agree t…

Sure, you are in control of your Tesla but you are obviously not in control of other Teslas. Someone else who isn't as diligent as you or who doesn't care about it's limitations will happily crash head-on into you, blissfully unaware of their own ignorance.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#498

Post by SomaticPirate »

orthecreedence wrote: post #444
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

US passenger rail is unsafe. We have no way near the level of sophistication of European passenger rail transport.

We have a significantly higher number of derailments. Even the worst European rail is more safe than US rail.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#499

Post by vel0city »

gwbas1c wrote: post #290
xdavidliu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they meant "save a few thousand dollars so my Tesla can just have the ordinary cruise control that it comes with, without the autopilot which I believe to be unusable"

No, I didn't mean that at all. All Teslas come with Autopilot. It's adaptive cruise control and automatic steering that will keep you in your lane. It's awesome, and I love it. "Enhanced" autopilot, which currently is $6000 extra, is automatic lane change, automatically taking exits, summon, and automatic parking. The automatic lane change is nice, but it fails too often to be worth thousands of dollars. All the rest…

> All Teslas come with Autopilot. It's adaptive cruise control and automatic steering that will keep you in your lane.

So like every Honda Accord as well.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#500

Post by Analemma_ »

buildbot wrote: post #176
jlv2 wrote: post #154

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.

To me "recall" clearly implies that I have to drive it to the dealership and let them fix or install something. "Mandatory software update" might be a better term.
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