New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving • Hacker News Board

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#491

Post by 0xAFFFF » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:51 AM UTC

> You can’t program your way out of the problem with Level 2; in fact, the better the Level 2 system seems to be, the worse the problem gets. That problem is that human beings are simply no good at monitoring systems that do most of the work of a task and remaining ready to take over that task with minimal to no warning.

Well, you could have extremely visible/audible signals for the driver to take over when the driving system is failing (internal lighting becoming red and blaring alarms), but that wouldn't be very popular I guess, especially with half-assed self-driving systems.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#492

Post by maury91 » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:52 AM UTC

I'm trying to reason "why the Tesla did stop?", in the second video on TheIntercept website, I can notice a left exit before the point where the Tesla stopped. Something I noticed with Google maps ( I don't have a Tesla, and maybe the navigation system of the Tesla is similar ), is that sometimes thinks tunnels can access the road above them ( in a tunnel near my home Google maps always tells me "turn right" in the middle of the tunnel without understanding that I need to get out of the tunnel first and take the ramp ). With this information I think the navigation system of the Tesla could have been similarly stupid and tried to turn left on a ghost road just to discover there's no road and so decided to stop.

This is just a possible reason, and I'm definitely not suggesting that this is what did happen.

This is Google maps saying "go right" in the middle of a tunnel: https://goo.gl/maps/G89cyQT2APUQuu6g6 ( the two roundabouts are connected by a tunnel )

PS: If you use street view you will see how it was 3 years ago, before the construction of the tunnel

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#493

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:53 AM UTC

cookingrobot wrote: post #319

sokoloff wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No blame for the person driving unsafe equipment on a public highway?

Blame doesn’t have to be zero sum. This seems to be 100% the fault of Tesla for selling unsafe equipment. Some amount of blame for the Tesla driver. 0% blame for the car that got cut off and hit the Tesla. And 100% blame for every car behind that crashed into the car in front of them.

Only half of the subsequent impacts in the Tesla video are the fault of the car who hit the car in front of them. I agree with the police conclusion that vehicles 5, 7, and 8 share fault for unsafe following. Vehicles 2, 3, and 6 do not, despite crashing into the car in front of them (subsequent to being hit from behind). Vehicle 4 I couldn’t develop a clear sense of what happened, but it seems was hit only from behind.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#494

Post by jaclaz » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:53 AM UTC

nlowell wrote: post #263

barbazoo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indicating to change lanes and changing lanes should have been enough for the traffic behind to slow down and create a safe distance between each other. People just drove too close to each other.

I wouldn't expect any normal car to behave like this, but the drivers following should have recognized it was a Tesla

Maybe it could help a large "F" sign, similar to the "L" one for learners in the UK (or the "P" one)? [0]

[0] https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-learning-to-drive/using-l...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#495

Post by misnome » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:56 AM UTC

naavis wrote: post #472

bearmode wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then you have to slow down to keep a safe following distance again. Then it happens again, and again, and again.

Why is this a problem?

The conversation you are in:

1. It's the fault of the driver behind, for not leaving space

2. It's impossible to leave space, because cars will move in if there is a large gap

3. Why is this a problem?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#496

Post by pigtailgirl » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:56 AM UTC

0xAFFFF wrote: post #491

> You can’t program your way out of the problem with Level 2; in fact, the better the Level 2 system seems to be, the worse the problem gets. That problem is that human beings are simply no good at monitoring systems that do most of the work of a task and remaining ready to take over that task with minimal to no warning. Well, you could have extremely visible/audible signals for the driver to take over when the drivi…

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1609313412131037193?ref_...

-- diff feature - still - eeek --

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#497

Post by twizod » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 10:57 AM UTC

Can someone please explain to me why the system cannot tell you why it stopped? What prevents the program from explaining why it performs certain actions?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#498

Post by aliswe » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 11:00 AM UTC

twizod wrote: post #497

Can someone please explain to me why the system cannot tell you why it stopped? What prevents the program from explaining why it performs certain actions?

Very common in machine learning.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#499

Post by redox99 » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 11:01 AM UTC

twizod wrote: post #497

Can someone please explain to me why the system cannot tell you why it stopped? What prevents the program from explaining why it performs certain actions?

I'm sure Tesla has logs. Also in the visualization when it's slowing for something it shows such object in blue or red.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#500

Post by wiredfool » Thu, Jan 12, 2023, 11:01 AM UTC

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #468

__alexs wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly stopping at high speed is generally considered (at least in the UK) dangerous driving and will get you prosecuted and probably mean you lose your license at the very least. If it results in a death then you can get a life sentence in prison for it. Intentionally stopping inside a tunnel is a pretty clear cut case of dangerous driving over here.

However there can be many reasons why a car has to stop suddenly: for example, a child might suddenly cross the road, or the driver might feel he or she is having a heart attack. My driving school teacher used to say: always remember that the car ahead of you could suddenly stop at any time for a reason that you might not know.

The longest delay on a motorway I've ever had (get out of the car, walk the dog, hang around for a couple of hours in 32C degree heat) was a case of a driver of a small car having a heart attack, slamming on the brakes, and getting rear-ended.

The car ended up half it's length.