My "Effective Altruism Is Not A Cult" t-shirt is prompting a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. I've dug into this stuff over the last couple days, because I had previously understood Effective Altruism to be something akin to like a pledge drive for Charity Navigator's best-reviewed charities or something, and it turns out it's nothing of the sort. In fact, if you read some of the commentary from EA insi…
Sorry, scientology? This comes off as pretty bad faith. Most EAs are people like me who read some essays, setup some recurring donations to GiveWell and call it a day. If that's how being a scientology member goes then it must be milder than I've been led to believe.
The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
491–500 of 619 posts
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
The atom bomb was once a hypothetical construct. The Einstein-Szilard letter was talking about a danger that they had no way of proving was even possible. Proof is irrelevant outside of mathematics; the only relevant question is cost to expected benefit - or expected harm. With dangerous research, when a conclusive demonstration of possibility is achieved, it is usually too late to do much in the way of prevention. T…
Part of the problem with this is that conclusive demonstration that AGI is possible is not even in the same ballpark as a conclusive demonstration that it would have consequences like the EA folks seem to believe. From everything I've read about their views, they seem to believe that either the moment an AGI is created or very, very soon thereafter, it will achieve the Singularity and "ascend" to something near godho…
My take on it is the other way around: every step of the argument seems plainly obvious.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#493My "Effective Altruism Is Not A Cult" t-shirt is prompting a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. I've dug into this stuff over the last couple days, because I had previously understood Effective Altruism to be something akin to like a pledge drive for Charity Navigator's best-reviewed charities or something, and it turns out it's nothing of the sort. In fact, if you read some of the commentary from EA insi…
"Maybe it's some kind of horrible drug interaction with Rationalism, or maybe EA is fundamentally Rationalist?" I have always associated EA with the rationalist movement, since I came across it via reading rationalist stuff. If you define EA as "figuring out how to deploy a given set of resources so as to do the most good," your conclusions are going to depend on your value system: how do you define and measure good?…
This is exactly it. Because "good" is subjective to the individual, EA without some kind of consensus building reduces to "maximize your agency as an individual in the world, and do what you think is good," which gets uncomfortably close to Ayn Rand territory for me.
That's not just speculative either - if you read some of Caroline Ellison (Ex-CEO of Alameda Capital and an EA disciple) purported tumblr posts, it paints an image of someone who's passionate about ranking the world's issues in descending order of priority, investigating genetic differences between humans from different ethnic backgrounds, and "optimizing the world." We're not there yet, but it's also not a stretch to see EA turn into eugenics for someone with these interests and values.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#494Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So would most people, and we wouldn’t call it altruism. Most people would call helping a relative pay their medical bills altruism. It's also the selfish and rational choice. It's both simultaneously.
> Most people would call helping a relative pay their medical bills altruism. Altruism is the disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. Helping your family is not altruism.
Not necessarily altruism.
It absolutely could be.
Knowing the true motives of another human is very difficult, perhaps impossible (without a predictive biological model of consciousness we can't be sure we're reading minds correctly, and it's still an open question whether such a thing can exist).
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#495Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your reaction is a bit absolutist. The basic premise is that if you're capable of making 500k a year in the developed world then going to Africa to volunteer to build houses is not as effective as just donating your money to charities that send people to help, or hire people yourself. What it evolved into is a bit controversial, overall they seem to be a bunch of kids who don't know what to do with the power and mone…
They aren’t kids any more
Maturity-wise... that's still unclear to me.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#496My "Effective Altruism Is Not A Cult" t-shirt is prompting a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. I've dug into this stuff over the last couple days, because I had previously understood Effective Altruism to be something akin to like a pledge drive for Charity Navigator's best-reviewed charities or something, and it turns out it's nothing of the sort. In fact, if you read some of the commentary from EA insi…
Buying indulgences was wrong because it was used to cover up moral wrongdoing or reduce ones penance for wrongdoing, not because the concept of money buying moral praise is intrinsically false or corrupt. It seems pretty clear from Scott's example that this is not the scenario he was describing.
Phrased differently, all else being equal, a person that contributed billions to charities deserves more moral praise than one who didn't or can't. Edit: and if you don't think so, then why do we give such people awards and recognition?
This won't be convincing to everyone of course, and I expect the dividing line will be whether you think utilitarianism is the correct way to approach ethics. Of course if you don't, then you won't subscribe to EA anyway.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#497Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are EAs now patting themselves in the back for all the altruism that came before them? That's weird but on-brand. "We are responsible for all altruism, wherever it happened in space or time!"
Eh? That seems entirely unrelated to the comment you are replying to.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#498Humans have devised many, many institutions and philosophies for helping each other grow into powerful moral people. Uncountable religions, self help movements, mind-body wellness systems, the list goes on and on. Every single one, without exception, has examples of people at the top of the institution, widely regarded as masters of the system, who are miserable destructive human beings. This makes me profoundly sad.…
The solution is to tax the shit out of rich people and hand it over to the rest of society. I mean the maths has been done: whatever the rich give out in charity is always less than what they would pay in taxes. The whole effective altruism thing is an ego trip experience. Wow I get my name on a hospital wing!
That said, systems for routinely rotating the top of the hierarchy (such as taxation or term limits) are helpful to be sure.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#499My "Effective Altruism Is Not A Cult" t-shirt is prompting a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. I've dug into this stuff over the last couple days, because I had previously understood Effective Altruism to be something akin to like a pledge drive for Charity Navigator's best-reviewed charities or something, and it turns out it's nothing of the sort. In fact, if you read some of the commentary from EA insi…
I'm on the periphery of the EA / Longtermist scene — I have friends and customers in that space and have studied and hung out some. I recently went to one of the online events — EAGx Virtual — so I got to see what people actually care about, are working on, the methodologies being used, etc.
One way that might be helpful to think about "Effective Altruism" and "Longtermism" is that they're rather loose labels, more similar to "Democracy" than "Member of XYZ Political Party or NGO" — while there's some loose unifying threads across people who hold those views, there are very many different nuanced views about what good implementation can look like and how individual people and groups relate being effective and benevolent.
Then, the people doing the best work in that space are doing some incredible things that have already had short-term high-impact results in the world like doing hyper-rigorous work on how to cure and treat and prevent diseases in the developing world, and then actually getting those things funded and checking the results. It's also very much _not_ uniformly "just use a spreadsheet" - a lot of people there take dialogue, conversation, and engagement qualitatively to ensure good is happening very seriously.
For instance, a talk I attended at EAGx Virtual covered this - https://whatworkswellbeing.org/about-wellbeing/how-to-measur... - I haven't been able to dive deeply into the methodology, but it looks incredibly thoughtful and with many practical applications. I'm, personally, really happy people are doing work like that.
Then, simultaneously there are people in the EA/Longtermist space that are working on more speculative potential problems — pandemic preparedness, reducing the risk of nuclear war, and yes AI Safety. To the latter point, empirically a lot of people in AI Safety seem more worried about very practical can-definitely-be-anticipated risks of things like, e.g., USA-China rivalry and what types of regulations, markets, and general consensus might prevent that from going badly. Obviously highly speculative futuristic ideas are sexier and get more attention than "boring routine stuff" but international conventions against, for instance, Lethal Autonomous Weapons (LAWs) seems like a really prudent thing to at least explore and see if an international consensus could be built around similar to the Geneva or Hague conventions.
As for "EA-think" I don't agree with Aaronson's assessment. I'm n=1, but there's not a single monolithic viewpoint.
Some really exceptional work is being done by some very thoughtful people there. Undoubtedly some bad or sloppy work is being done, as is true in just about any domain. But on balance I've found the people there to be quite thoughtful and doing some really valuable things for the world with a lot of sincerity and rigor.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#500My "Effective Altruism Is Not A Cult" t-shirt is prompting a lot of questions already answered by my shirt. I've dug into this stuff over the last couple days, because I had previously understood Effective Altruism to be something akin to like a pledge drive for Charity Navigator's best-reviewed charities or something, and it turns out it's nothing of the sort. In fact, if you read some of the commentary from EA insi…
> Either way: when your logic has established that you can obtain moral superiority by literally buying indulgences, it has officially proven too much, and if you can't recognize that, something has gone terribly wrong in your thinking Buying indulgences was wrong because it was used to cover up moral wrongdoing or reduce ones penance for wrongdoing, not because the concept of money buying moral praise is intrinsical…
So you are literally saying that by taking a portion of that money and donating it they are morally superior to the poor they took it from (compared to those individuals we are almost ALL poor).
This is circular logic to support profit taking beyond what is reasonable.