Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps, but I think on this instance... this short-termist mindset has a basis. What kind of a 100 year future does Atlassian have? Jira certainly isn't a 100 year product. Software is so fast... IDK. The pox is not just a product of greed and malice and nothing.
> What kind of a 100 year future does Atlassian have? We're talking about a company that produces products that are widely used. JIRA is not the issue, but the company that produced it. 100 years is stretching it, but I would believe that Atlassian outlasts yahoo.
Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
491–500 of 515 posts
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's kind of amusing: I've seen a few times developers rebelling and moving to whatever other random tool (Atlassian's own Trello, Pivotal Tracker, Github's thing, stickers on the wall) as soon as a hardline PO/PM left the job. Only for JIRA to return when another PO/PM that "really really needs the reporting features" (but didn't really use them) was hired.
My fave thing about Jira is how between the tool & it's plugins, you can roll up all sorts of views for management reporting purposes. Despite this, exactly zero shops I have worked do management believe their managers will understand those views. Therefore at a weekly/monthly/quarterly cadence, "someone" (dev leads) have to spend hours hand updating some horrific excel view of project statuses for big management to…
You're spot on about that. I've been the "someone" dev lead doing this so often I decided that someone should build a system that does this. You can see my progress so far at fixed.pm
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#493Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate how the elegant simplicity behind the agile development principles was so thoroughly co-opted by scrum, so now when people think “agile” they actually mean scrum but have no idea that’s what’s happening.
I hate how when people say scrum they really mean something which is not well defined and you end up with some weird system that only some "scrum master" understands and that they seem to be making up as they go along.
In practice scrum is extremely unagile, because there is one very particular workflow to be used and actual workflows have to be adapted to suit scrum. Sometimes it leads to increased agility, but more often than not it does not.
Probably the central piece of scrum are sprints. Nothing wrong with sprints in general, but sprints rely on feature sizes being sprint-sized. Sprints only work when you actually finish planned stuff over the course of a sprint. Naturally, feature and especially release sizes vary. By focusing on milestones one can actually plan and schedule work and releases. This is agile - you can shuffle stuff around. Instead scrum tries to sell fixed size sprints to give impression of steady movement forward, but this decouples sprints from milestones and slightly counter-intuitively reduces agility - shuffling milestones around sprints merely gives you a bunch of unfinished milestones, but also a bunch of finished sprints. But variable sized sprints based on milestones sound too much waterfall-y when the selling point is departure from waterfall.
Interestingly this attempt to squeeze features into sprint-sized chunks is one of the reasons for technical debt that you then must somehow manage, simply because squeezing features comes at a cost of technical debt. There are more reasons for technical debt, but it is slightly humorous when a tool aimed at managing/reducing technical debt introduces debts of its own.
A bit tangential to scrum, but Facebook's story of Hack/HHVM is well-known story somewhat indicative of this. When you size features according to wall-clock sized release cadence (instead of sizing release cadence according to feature sizes) you inevitably accumulate technical debt - new features should build on top of past features, but deficiencies in past features prevent new features from being built on. There are more or less 3 ways this plays out: 1. actual feature release cadence drops due to increased development weight; 2. release cadence drops due to fixup "features" being released; 3. release cadence drops due to dedicated to fixing. Do not get me wrong, technical debt accumulates and impacts release cadence any way, but with feature sized sprints this does not come out of nowhere.
Over the years teams (usually informally) understood deficiencies of scrum process and started throwing pieces of the process away, shuffling them around and having weird mess of system. This is not due to scrum not being well defined, but rather scrum being a hammer in search of nails.
Agile methodologies generally came out of manufacturing - process based workflow. Scrum takes those practices and packages them as a project management tooling. The whole point of agility in processes is the ability to adapt in the middle of the process. Project management, on the other hand, needs plannability and progress tracking. There are weird intersections between the two and IMO scrum fails to satisfy both - neither it is good at adapting mid cycle (because scrum checkpoints mid-feature), nor is it good at future plannability (because it focuses on short term goals). I have seen scrum get distorted in two major ways: either "sprints" get stretched into months long waterfalls, or sprints mostly reshuffling priorities in "in progress" pile and checkpointing progress.
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#494Earlier quoted context omitted.
> JIRA has huge feature creep lockin along the likes of sales force. Sure Jira has lockin, but so does any tool with any features. Git has lockin, but you don't hear of people avoiding branches in case they need to move to perforce. > Any new company probably wouldn’t use it though, it’s just overkill. So what should they use instead? The thing about jira is it does the basics well, far better than any of the competi…
> Git has lockin, but you don't hear of people avoiding branches in case they need to move to perforce. Replace Git with SVN in the comment above. Also replace Perforce with Git in the comment above. Then you have a viable argument and a story of mine that actually is a case of exactly that - back when project management for certain projects was done primarily in SVN, there was the expectation to stick to the popular…
What happens if you get kicked off AWS?
What happens if Oracle goes broke?
What happens if Sun decides it will not let Java run on MacOS?
Etcetera. Often there is limited possibility for portability (people often thought programming in Java made things portable - they were partly right) but each element of lock in you allow must have a very good reason.
In my experience it is usually not a consideration.
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#495Earlier quoted context omitted.
>You mean literally Windows' Notepad? Because that's about the worst app to write on. It's actually one of the best on Windows, because if you leave your computer for a moment and it randomly decides to restart to install a Windows Update, often a notepad with unsaved changes will block it from restarting, whilst unsaved work elsewhere won't.
Vs Notepad++ that simply autosaves in that case? Only problem there is when you realise you have 50 tabs of scratch data you were expecting to have been discarded by now but are all still loaded up next time it starts up...
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#496Somehow I'm not surprised. A few days ago[0] I was writing a Jira ticket after hitting the "Create" button and I wrote the description (the body of the ticket) for ~30 minutes. I switched the ticket type from A to B (no epics involved) and it wiped out the entire description. All I did was select a different item in a select drop down box provided by the form's UI. There was no warning it would clear the description…
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#497Earlier quoted context omitted.
You mean literally Windows' Notepad? Because that's about the worst app to write on. Not even going to go into how it's almost devoid of useful commands. Make one mistake, you're good. Make two, tough luck, you can only undo once. Accidentally select some (or all) text and type over it then somewhere else? Today's really not your day. It's actually worse than textboxes in this respect. This happened to me more times…
>You mean literally Windows' Notepad? Because that's about the worst app to write on. It's actually one of the best on Windows, because if you leave your computer for a moment and it randomly decides to restart to install a Windows Update, often a notepad with unsaved changes will block it from restarting, whilst unsaved work elsewhere won't.
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#498Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And has been growing 30% YoY for the last 3~4 years alone. Growing revenue while still not making a profit is not impressive. If you give me $100 today I can go out a buy $100 a pair of new shoes, and sell it for $70. Give me $200 and I'll go out and by two pairs of shoes and sell them for both $84 (total)! Keep giving me money and you'll continue to see this growth I promise! > This is unheard of in any other indu…
> Growing revenue while still not making a profit is not impressive. It is when you’re a software company and the marginal cost of the goods is zero.
$600mm annual sales and marketing isn't cost of goods but the method of accounting that I subscribe to includes such costs as a fundamental cost of production delivery.
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#499Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's wrong with having a small or medium company? Why must a company sell its soul for the chance of becoming a money-printing behemoth in the future? I understand that being small leaves you vulnerable to the predatory tactics of big players, but I see that as a consequence of lax regulation. There are too many mono/duopolies already, and the bigger they get, the harder it will be to split them apart.
Take a look at o365. Planner is an identical product to Trello. They're buying GitHub which competes with Bitbucket. Sharepoint & MSoffice are alternatives to Confluence. There might not be an equivalent to Jira but the Microsoft machine is increasingly muscling into their turf.
Re: Atlassian is 20 years old and unprofitable
#500Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They're revenue now is just a $2bn And has been growing 30% YoY for the last 3~4 years alone. This is unheard of in any other industry/market. Their FCF is also impressive.
> And has been growing 30% YoY for the last 3~4 years alone. Growing revenue while still not making a profit is not impressive. If you give me $100 today I can go out a buy $100 a pair of new shoes, and sell it for $70. Give me $200 and I'll go out and by two pairs of shoes and sell them for both $84 (total)! Keep giving me money and you'll continue to see this growth I promise! > This is unheard of in any other indu…
Hilarious that you use the analogy of shoes. This is exactly the problem. Great explanation on this concept:
https://a16z.com/2015/05/15/a16z-podcast-why-saas-revenue-is...
> Grow profits every year by 30% and I'll be impressed.
Oh, you mean like Facebook did?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/277229/facebooks-annual-...