California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#491

Post by reducesuffering » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #394

s5300 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then the situation in California must be deteriorating severely. Hmm… Worlds 5th largest GDP, internationally desirable cities, some of the highest housing prices that’s always being bought over asking price, often in cash - internationally acclaimed state wide university system, one of the cultural & academic centers of the nation… I know it’s like, my opinion, but I think the situation in California is fine. I’d…

How many of the employees in these companies that make the GDP so high were born, raised, and educated in California? You know damned well that it's not many. California is a success because of immigrants from other countries and states. Think about the founders of the current top valuation tech companies in California. How many were raised in California? Zuck? Nope. Maryland. Sergey Brin? Nope, educated in Maryland…

Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman (LinkedIn), Ben Horowitz (a16z), and many more. While you have some point, the Bay Area only raises so many kids while it's economic engine is unprecedented in attracting intelligent folks from around the world.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#492

Post by Jensson » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

akomtu wrote: post #141

_-david-_ wrote: post #25

If racism is actually causing blacks and Hispanics to not make it into advanced classes then why are Asians making it in?

US admits only the top 1% of Asians with its immigration policies. Same for most other countries. If average rural Chinese folks could immigrate to US, we'd see a more "equitable" picture.

Then why would California school discriminate against Asians in admissions? Wasn't the point of affirmative action to counteract discrimination, but now it seems like it just makes the discrimination Asians already face even worse? If institutions openly discriminating against you is not "institutional racism" then I don't know what is.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#493

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #477

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

You have to understand, this is no trap. It goes as planned, the masses will rap. Mad to the max, under the thunderdome. Their new home, erected by truly democratic means. Who are you to insist that someone intervenes? Bow to your new transqueer queens!

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#494

Post by todd8 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

anthk wrote: post #321

vntx wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.

Communism? The Soviet books on Math were crazily more deep than the US ones. Read about Spivak's Calculus.

Spivak's Calculus is intended for use in a two semester course covering differential and integral calculus. It is a challenging but rewarding introduction to calculus; in my opinion, this text is appropriate for math majors while other STEM students might be better off with a textbook that didn't focus quite so much on learning proofs. It was used at MIT for the first year of Calculus, but only by the math majors.

Michael Spivak is an American mathematician born in Queens, New York.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#495

Post by BoorishBears » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #482

BoorishBears wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. Lol what? So uh are white people more genetically suited for lacrosse like 80% of the PLL is white, and us black people are somehow genetically suited for basketball because the NBA is like 70% black? We should really look into these... lacrosse genes. And those basketball genes. Or not? https://scholarworks.wmich.ed…

Consider these two statements: A) The differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. B) Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. You seem to be arguing against A (about which I expressed no opinion).

Maybe because B borders on nonsensical??

Like what bizarre circles are you stewing in that you hear "They're great because they inherited the right genes for VO2 max!" more than you hear "They're great because they put in the hard work and effort! That's dedication right there!"

And even if we focus on this truly fringe group that you seem to run with, the genetic factors like height are also readily overriden by inequality in the "broad racial groupings" you mentioned earlier... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34065650/

Inequality is the great genetic equalizer...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#496

Post by todd8 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

Like many readers of HN, I've taken a lot of math over the years--at least 25 semester long courses at the university level. So I have well informed opinions about what works and what doesn't work for me; schools, on the other hand, have to educate everyone. This, perhaps, accounts for the wide range of opinions being expressed here.

I think that we can agree that the whatever they are doing in the United States isn't working very well. According to the scores on the PSIA math test given internationally to 15 year olds, the US ranks behind 21 other nations [1], well below the international average. Why not pick, say, the top four countries, (recently South Korea, Japan, Switzerland, and the Netherlands) and adopt their methods that are working? Instead of dreaming up new approaches that have no quality research justification, just teach math in a manner that is already known to be significantly better.

[1] https://www.nsf.gov/nsb/sei/edTool/data/highschool-08.html

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#497

Post by zbobet2012 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:18 AM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #436

abeppu wrote: post #404

So much dialogue is around how to pace and sequence the traditional math curriculum (geometry, trig, precalc, calc). Are those still the most important things to teach? And do they need to be taught and tested through working through the same calculations framed in the same narrow scenarios? When's the last time you solved a quadratic equation or did integration by parts in the real world? The concepts may be importa…

Can you really learn stats without calculus first? How would you explain continuous probability to students? If you're talking about descriptive stats and the parts that do not require calculus, then high school will teach them. As for geometry, isn't it the only course that teaches kids rigorous proof? It helps students build math maturity and is a segway into other type of proofs used in discrete maths.

I'll echo this. Everyone says "learn stats not calculus", but... statistics is based in calculus. Even discrete probability relies on a lot of infinite series.

I mean we should definitely teach basic probability and combinatorics early on, but my recollection was that is the case.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#498

Post by JetAlone » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #418

rhino369 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" . . . as a means of promoting equity" and "The intent of the state mathematics framework, its designers say, is to maintain rigor while also helping remedy California’s achievement gaps for Black, Latino and low-income students, which remain some of the largest in the nation. It's Harrison Bergeron Math.

I had to look this up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron "In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, lo…

Vive L'Empereur.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#499

Post by TMWNN » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

todd8 wrote: post #496

Like many readers of HN, I've taken a lot of math over the years--at least 25 semester long courses at the university level. So I have well informed opinions about what works and what doesn't work for me ; schools, on the other hand, have to educate everyone. This, perhaps, accounts for the wide range of opinions being expressed here. I think that we can agree that the whatever they are doing in the United States isn…

>I think that we can agree that the whatever they are doing in the United States isn't working very well. According to the scores on the PSIA math test given internationally to 15 year olds, the US ranks behind 21 other nations [1], well below the international average.

Americans do well on PISA compared to their ethnic relatives. (https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-new-2018-pisa-school-test-sco...>) Asian Americans do better than Asians; whites do better than Europeans; Latinos do better than Latin Americans; and blacks do better than Africans.

Hispanics and especially blacks' scores drag the US average down. Both white and Asian Americans score higher than Canada (and white+Asian is essentially Canada's racial makeup), and higher than New Zealand, Australia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France, Norway, and the UK; Estonia is below US Asians but above white Americans. Norway is by far the wealthiest Nordic state but its average is only two points higher than the US national average, despite not having a demographic that is 13% of the population and scores 85 points below the white American average.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#500

Post by rich_sasha » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

It seems to me, there are 2 different things going on.

The “equitable math” is clearly a crime against children.

But another thing is, basic maths is a life skill. Schools aim for an ambitious curriculum, but many people leave school and can’t add, or don’t understand fractions (i don’t know about the US but certainly true in the UK and Poland). These are all people who passed through many years of maths teaching, algebra and all, and can’t add 1/2 to 1/3.

At some level, we have to do something about this. People make life decisions based on their [lack of] understanding of maths, and it’s rarely algebra and calculus we’re talking about.