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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#491

Post by throwtheworld »

Aunche wrote: post #446
throwtheworld wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. This is very perspective dependent. I’m a black college student now and every conversation with friends back home includes some mention of dropping out because it’s not for us as well. When you see people with equivalent resumes already coasting by in the job market because they could get their last names and LinkedIn photos past…

I can't speak for your personal experience, but at least on paper, companies are begging for more diverse hires, even blatantly admitting to breaking the Civil Rights act to do so. https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/132267679726609094-s... >students who are a member of a group that is historically underrepresented in the technology industry will receive priority in the selection process. This group includes wome…

Unfortunately, once you’re giving “priority” to such a broad group of people (e.g. every permutation of gender, whatever you consider ethnic, and ability minorities) it becomes easy to say one thing and continue doing another.

The companies that have to virtue-signal do so because you wouldn’t notice if they didn’t tell you. I’d prefer they skip that and hire who they want without the pretense, and if that’s not me, fine, but please be honest.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#492

Post by icare_1er »

tchaffee wrote: post #197
jmeister wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, in 2021, companies and universities are bending over backwards to hire black candidates. This falls in the “earth is not flat” category in 2021, I will not bother posting evidence, as a litmus test of the HN crowd.

Both can be true. The number you really need is what percentage of black people with a CS degree end up actually getting a job offer. And highly publicized diversity efforts by tech giants does not necessarily reflect what the average company in Ohio is doing. The news is not the data, so yeah, you really do need more evidence than "it's what I heard".

[flagged]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#493

Post by dagw »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #116
atoav wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a certified EE and have a MA of fine Arts (film). Living in Europe where I had to pay 350 Euros per semester (which included a public transport ticket for the whole province), I didn't have to make a choice between the two. I did both because I was interested in both. After university I was well equiped to do freelancer work in my field and earned well. I don't think this "you have to be hard or else you won't s…

> "you have to be hard or else you won't survive"-mentality Europeans often have this opinion but I don't think it's an accurate reading of the issue. The issue is not that Americans work too hard, it's that this hard work is no longer actually amounting to anything. In the past, you could pay for college by working summers at the local restaurant. Today the average debt is $30K and you still won't get a decent job.…

Today the average debt is $30K

That sounds...reasonable. I can't speak for the rest of Europe but a $30k student loan would be perfectly normal after a 4-5 year of study in Sweden.

Back of the envelope, $30k for 4 years is $625 a month and that is not much for just food and rent.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#494

Post by selimthegrim »

vimy wrote: post #443
long_time_gone wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on which metric? Does the same thinking carryover to the construction industry which is 97% male?

It coincides with the election of Donald Trump. This ideology already had a foothold in some departments and Trump was the accelerant that made it spread everywhere. Longread if you want a more detailed explanation: https://newdiscourses.com/2021/04/rise-woke-cultural-revolut...

Calling Lindsay a professional mathematician is a stretch. Also he neglects to cite Derrick Bell and Richard Delgado and the whole critical legal studies movement.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#495

Post by mbg721 »

Simon321 wrote: post #131

To people recommending trades, there's nothing wrong with trades, but you can get more out of college than only a job. You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. The environment also naturally stimulates and values learning, gathering knowledge and understanding. You can learn how to become a better person and think more critically. Seeing how many misinformation is going around and the p…

Unless college has changed since I went (to a pretty average state school), you can do all that, but the default seemed to be to start off in a program that sounds cool, realize the science classes are too hard, change to an easier major a couple times, finish off your gen-eds with some random survey classes where you just have to write a couple short papers compatible with the professor's world-view, and stumble your way into a bachelor's degree.

The most interesting college classes I took tolerated non-majors reluctantly, if at all. The expectation was that people who were there to be "well-rounded humans" weren't going to take the course seriously.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#496

Post by [deleted] »

motohagiography wrote: post #483

What these men don't understand, and nobody is telling them directly, is that college is how you essesntially conspire to manage (extract value from) the people who didn't go. College education is a tribe initiation, and you are in or you aren't. The pretenses and pretexts of subject matter and socializing are secondary to this one big thing. Everyone who graduates knows this, and this is the quiet part most won't ev…

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#497

Post by sadfev »

dgb23 wrote: post #379
bmj wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. This. We are seeing the results of what was reported in the book Boys Adrift . My older son just graduated high school. He has no interest in college at the moment, and has shown a gift for working with his hands. He is currently doing a carpentry apprenticeship with an acquaintance that runs a renovation and design company.…

I very much struggled with discipline and motivation at university and eventually dropped out. It was not until I started working when I became a highly motivated self-driven learner. Now I love studying and learning (and teaching), but I do it at my own pace and I choose the things that matter for my work or are just plain fun. Looking back a decade later, it would have been very beneficial if I didn't go to univers…

I think that’s a better approach.

I hope some of the implicit stigma around older undergrads goes away too.

Not everyone is motivated or gifted enough at 18 to grind through 4 years while maximizing social interactions and general happiness.

I really do believe university education is very beneficial to most people but at different stages of their lives and one solution fits all is not good.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#498

Post by dontthinkso »

motohagiography wrote: post #483

What these men don't understand, and nobody is telling them directly, is that college is how you essesntially conspire to manage (extract value from) the people who didn't go. College education is a tribe initiation, and you are in or you aren't. The pretenses and pretexts of subject matter and socializing are secondary to this one big thing. Everyone who graduates knows this, and this is the quiet part most won't ev…

Disagree, I have several friends who dropped out, and my brother dropped out of high school, and he is making 150k. A college degree will soon be a recognized as unnecessary.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#499

Post by watwut »

icare_1er wrote: post #383
jensensbutton wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As recently as 1970 women in the US weren't allowed to open checking accounts or get loans from a bank by themselves, but tell me more about how no one _ever_ stopped women from doing what they want.

I fail to see how a women being unable to open a bank account in the 60s, explains why a girl born in 2000, would not want to spend her time geeking on her computer trying to build a website, in 2012. But i'm all ears.

> would not want to spend her time geeking on her computer

Well, based on studies I have seen, if the family had only one computer, it waay often in boys room rather then in girls room. PC was assumed to be boys toy.

The culture emerges from there.

Anecdotally, that is patter I do see around. Parents of young girls are way more often enforcing "no screen till this or that age" while parents of young boys almost brag about boys playing games on them.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#500

Post by inkblotuniverse »

Simon321 wrote: post #131

To people recommending trades, there's nothing wrong with trades, but you can get more out of college than only a job. You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. The environment also naturally stimulates and values learning, gathering knowledge and understanding. You can learn how to become a better person and think more critically. Seeing how many misinformation is going around and the p…

From my time at college, any 'critical thinking' seemed to mostly be a way to spread the college's accepted narrative, which contains its own brand of disinformation.
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