Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#491

Post by mariuolo » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

JCharante wrote: post #49

I'm surprised more HN readers don't view citizenship as a subscription tier. Non citizens can work in the US but it's harder to do the paperwork. What's wrong with comparing benefits between service providers? Yes the US will try to save you if you get kidnapped by extremists, but they won't go out of their way to get you vaccinated against covid unlike the Chinese government who sent sinovac supplies abroad to vacci…

> subscription tier

One word: draft.

Would you die for your service provider?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#492

Post by BenjiWiebe » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #435

Dracophoenix wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits does one have when living in a foreign country as a US citizen? There is no legal representation. There is no access to US government services. What exactly would an overseas US citizen be paying for?

If there are no benefits to being a US citizen while living abroad, there should be no issue with renouncing their citizenship. Why do they want to maintain their citizenship if it doesn’t give them anything?

To keep the option open of coming back, and then using government services/paying taxes.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#493

Post by bestcoder69 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

Sure except one side gets a much larger benefit and the other side must enter into this style of contract with _someone_, or starve to death (in the typical case). Just to sidestep the debate over differing dictionary definitions of exploitation (to show my hand a bit though, I prefer the ones that are useful in describing how things have become the way they are, rather than the libertarian ones).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#494

Post by Retric » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #483

Retric wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a reciprocal relationship with rights and obligations on both sides not ownership. For example the FBI doesn’t invoice victims or their families when it gets involved in kidnapping cases. Capital gains are deferred without interest until an asset it sold, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an obligation for those years.

> rights and obligations on both sides not ownership I would say consequences of infringement are much worse for individual citizens than for the government. If the government confiscates some of your money through "civil forfeiture", you then have to sue the government and prove the money was gained legally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... On the other hand, try not filing your taxes.…

It’s not an equal relationship, but governments failing their side on wide enough scale end up failing.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#495

Post by grumblenum » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

fourthwaveska wrote: post #44

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship. It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are bei…

>It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are being spent on war and murder in the name of christ and oil profits.

You know Bush isn't president anymore, right? That hasn't been a a popular (and I would say erroneous, even when it was popular) talking point for more than a decade.

I do find it interesting that expatriation trends seem to pivot in years with presidential elections, according to that chart.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#496

Post by bee_rider » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #106

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

One should actually be a bit careful to state such intent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)

From that article:

"The wording of the statute is embarrassing. How can an alien renounce U.S. citizenship? In what capacity would said alien do so officially? One assumes that a court of law would find the language incoherent and unenforceable ... This is the way we legislate at 5 o'clock in the morning 4 days before adjournment."

Nice to see lawmakers falling to the specter of trying to get that commit in for the next release, along with the rest of us.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#497

Post by revolvingocelot » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #457

revolvingocelot wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of argumentation is always so strange to me because it supposes a strange sort of emotional fragility in the rich that I can't quite square with the exceptionalism we allllll know they possess. You think the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape? No, no; America is the greatest country on the planet. I heard it on the news. Surely the increasingly consolidated media, owned by the emotiona…

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying the rich are leaving because of culture war issues. I am saying that the incessant claims that America is just the worse erodes the social fabric for everyone, including the rich, and one manifestation of such erosion is that it becomes morally acceptable to cheat the system. After all it is a corrupt, racist, oppressive, hypocriptical imperialistic system, so why pay int…

The problem with your supposition here is that America's rich have been already acting like "corrupt, racist, oppressive, hypocriptical imperialists" for at least 120 years. United Fruit Company[0], the Business Plot[1], etc. For the rich, it has always been morally acceptable to cheat the system. The 20th century saw the establishment of pensions, then they were raided barely a generation afterwards.

I think what you're complaining about is that the historical propaganda (not to mention historical material abundance for the plebes) which smoothed over the bad stuff doesn't work as well in the modern age. There's cellphone cameras, whistleblowers, shrinkflation, and planned obsolescence these days. What investment and fellow-feeling should the little people feel for The System?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#498

Post by robin_reala » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

ElFitz wrote: post #437

emodendroket wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the revenue is not very great but if there were a blanket exception I think you’d suddenly find a lot more people gaming then system to not technically be US residents and thereby escape large amounts of liability.

Most countries don’t tax citizens living abroad on foreign revenue, and just forget about them once they become residents elsewhere (unless they still have income from their country of origin).

And by most here, you mean every single country in the world apart from the US, Eritrea, Myanmar and Hungary.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#499

Post by ghaff » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #472

ElFitz wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve read, the US is possibly one of the worst countries to have to file taxes with, paperwork-wise. And that’s for the simple scenario of someone actually living in the US. But is also is another issue altogether. How US citizens can bear with this and the lobbying that spawned it is beyond me.

The people who have complicated taxes also usually have complex income sources and generally higher incomes. If you just get your wage the tax forms are relatively straightforward. Being international complicates things but you'll notice people are talking about the headaches associated with running their businesses, capital gains, etc.

Yeah, while you could argue that the IRS should do pre-filled electronic returns, the reality is that if you have a W2 and a couple 1099s, doing your taxes is pretty straightfoward.

As you say, it's more complex income sources and potentially deductions that lead to big accountant bills.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#500

Post by amanaplanacanal » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #435

Dracophoenix wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits does one have when living in a foreign country as a US citizen? There is no legal representation. There is no access to US government services. What exactly would an overseas US citizen be paying for?

If there are no benefits to being a US citizen while living abroad, there should be no issue with renouncing their citizenship. Why do they want to maintain their citizenship if it doesn’t give them anything?

I would suggest that the major benefit would be that if things go to shit wherever you are, you can flee back to the US. There are probably other countries you could choose for that instead, though.

Also, if you give up your citizenship, does that have any implications for traveling back to the US? You might very well have friends and family you would like to visit occasionally.