What it's like to be cancelled • Hacker News Board

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#491

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #489

tptacek wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be universally moral. People are free to retain professional connections with this person. In effect, what people seem to be arguing on this thread is that people should be enjoined from exercising their own freedom of association when someone is deemed to be unfairly targeted online. I think you can coherently argue that, but I don't think you can reasonably argue it. What's muddying the discussio…

> People are free to retain professional connections with this person. Only if they want to also be mobbed. I did say earlier that the mob ensures ostracization via fear. There is nothing redeeming or respectable about being in a mob, but the current cancel culture is attempting to overturn generations of social norms by trying to portray mobbing and witch-hunting as the moral high-ground. Believe me, no matter how m…

I don't think this response is very coherent. As I pointed out, you can face the same "serious" consequence simply for calling someone a bad name. What you're saying would make sense if we were discussing convicting him of a crime, but that's not what we're talking about; instead, his defenders are moving the goalposts, so that we use the standards of evidence of criminal conviction and imprisonment to enforce standards of social and commercial behavior. That doesn't make sense, sorry.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#492

Post by nazgulnarsil » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #11

I think the biggest problem with Twitter is that we can’t determine a denominator. Twitter knows, but we don’t know. 100 people tweeting about how this guy is bad might be indicative of a general consensus or might just be 100 people out of a billion Twitter users. People then interpret it as general consensus and pile on. We know the numerator but since we don’t know the denominator of people who didn’t comment, or…

Twitter polls are anonymous. Anytime you see a toxic thread you can throw in a poll asking bystanders whether they think the thread is going in a helpful direction. It's helpful to remind people that the polls are anonymous.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#493

Post by aeturnum » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #410

aeturnum wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this quote from the article is a good example: >I don’t think I can fully describe the heart-wrenching pain of seeing your life & career crumbling around you and feeling utterly powerless to stop it. I thought I was fast approaching my inevitable and permanent end. I don’t cry often, but I cried a lot that night. The author has harsh words for his previous behavior, but the question I have is about the sentim…

> if he had agency in the attacks on him I think he did in the sense that he could have chosen to respond in different ways. He could have said, for example, something like: "I admit I behaved badly in the past. I have changed who I am so I don't do those things any more, and I have apologized in private to the people I hurt. That's all I'm going to say about it." And then just ignored whatever happened on social med…

I think you point to the basic question here: is it fair to only judge him for the things he has apologized for and taken ownership of, or would it be moral to form and act on our own opinions?

If you feel it's only appropriate to judge people on the behavior they admit to, then I think your read is correct. That also, to me, feels like it becomes tautological - it places the locus of power on the accused and the onus of coming forward on the victim.

We want some level of responsibility on the victim. False accusations exist (though research suggests they are extremely rare). I don't have good answers - but someone asked what more someone could want and I answered. There are parts of how he talks about the experience that make me uneasy. I can understand that unease making others uncomfortable.

The line I would draw is one of looking for reflection on personal behavior. As I said in my post, I'm not comfortable accepting his description of the events as the end of it and I do not see any understanding of why that might be in his answer. I don't think he needs to have intended to commit sexual assault to have done it and I don't think someone needs to accuse him (privately or publicly) for him to reflect on the possibility.

I said elsewhere that I would work with him, but I would certainly understand if people didn't feel comfortable about it. I guess I've seen many people leave companies or not get hired for far more mundane interpersonal mismatches. It is really hard for me to take seriously that cultural fit matters at work, but that people must accept a former abusers' representations they have changed.

I also just want to say:

>[the companies fired him] based on fear of social media.

I have no idea if this is true and neither do you. I have seen external embarrassments handled in different ways and I am skeptical it was this simple. Of course, I could be wrong, but there are plenty of prominent figures who had accusations made against them and they either kept their jobs or found new positions.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#494

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #381

rkk3 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok since you don't post links I'll assume you are referring to: 'Bradley’s statement came the morning after concept artist Betty Jiang posted accusations on Twitter about a “bald headed crusty assed ‘well known’ artist who went around groping female devs,” saying that she hoped “to never see you and your shitty v-neck shirts at any workshops or conventions.”' He apologized for a lot of things, but I don't see him adm…

As I said: you can see screenshots of threads where he was accused both of "groping" and of taking advantaged of intoxicated women at events, and he responded with a link to the apology. Follow the first footnote from the Wikipedia article, and then click the screenshot on the first message in the Twitter thread. I have no way of judging the veracity of either side of this argument, but it sure looks like the allegat…

You've just demonstrated conclusively that he never claimed to grope anyone.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#495

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #333

noahbradley wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never groped anyone.

I know of at least 5 women who stopped attending these events because of you, and their (near-)contemporaneous accounts of your behavior does not match your current recollections of your past behavior.

I'm not inclined to believe 3rd party rumors.

If anything, your comment is exactly the problem OP is talking about.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#496

Post by mfksksis » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #492

prepend wrote: post #11

I think the biggest problem with Twitter is that we can’t determine a denominator. Twitter knows, but we don’t know. 100 people tweeting about how this guy is bad might be indicative of a general consensus or might just be 100 people out of a billion Twitter users. People then interpret it as general consensus and pile on. We know the numerator but since we don’t know the denominator of people who didn’t comment, or…

Twitter polls are anonymous. Anytime you see a toxic thread you can throw in a poll asking bystanders whether they think the thread is going in a helpful direction. It's helpful to remind people that the polls are anonymous.

the sample is still limited to logged in Twitter users

sane people dont have Twitter accounts

enjoy polling insane people

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#497

Post by username90 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #371

commandlinefan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> better to stay away entirely from certain sensitive topics Yeah... but the world would be a better place if we didn't have to.

Honestly, you don't have to.

Getting cancelled doesn't just cost your job, it also costs friends and family and possibly your spouse as well. So even if the probability is small the consequences can be so huge that any person prone to anxiety won't be able to live with the risk and instead just changes their behaviour to avoid it. And when anxious people don't they just commit suicide when it happens, making the effective consequence death, avoiding that at all cost seems reasonable.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#498

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

defaultname wrote: post #397

koheripbal wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Your argument here is that he's guilty until proven innocent.

If we're going to use that terminology, note that the common phrase "innocent until proven guilty" applies to the court , and only to the court. That it must treat you as innocent until a guilty judgment is rendered. It isn't some universal right or something, and has zero bearing on this conversation. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent. But if someone says "he did nothing illegal because he hasn't been charged"…

> "innocent until proven guilty" applies to the court

No. The legal system codifies societal values we have. One of those values is that accusations without evidence, like rumors and gossip, are poor reflections of reality, and should never be used to judge someone's character.

Witch hunts were real, remember?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#499

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

rkk3 wrote: post #423

blast wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people say that kind of thing out of shame, for example if they feel humiliated and are trying to make the humiliation stop by agreeing with the person shaming them. Such statements should not be taken as factual confessions. I don't know anything about this situation, but that language sounds like that to me. Also, the first sentence of the current article makes me think that the author is given to oversta…

> Such statements should not be taken as factual confessions What does this even mean? Don't apologize for coercing people to have sex if you didn't do that.

I think the comment is pretty clear in its meaning. Do you really not understand it?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#500

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #309

Animats wrote: post #143

What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.” None of which is illegal. It's not even a matter for civil litigation. He was not accused of doing this as a boss in an organization. Or in a workplace context. There were apparently no criminal charges. No EEOC complaints filed.[1] No a…

He's accused of more than being a jerk in social situations, but being a jerk in social situations is by itself absolutely grounds for being fired. The list of things you can do that aren't illegal but will reliably get you fired is long.

> being a jerk in social situations is by itself absolutely grounds for being fired.

That runs contrary to most companies I've worked at.