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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#491

Post by pvaldes »

pvaldes wrote: post #488
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? It only affects the end consumer. It’s deductible for businesses.

To start, YOU are the end consumer. Lets imagine that you wake up one day, and all is 21% more expensive, would be happy with it?

And your startup is now a company, but also a tax collecting office. You are forced also to be a tax collector, collect money from your clients, keep it safe and pay it to the mobs... to the government before 100 days, either you have it or not.

Your customers, of course, hate it. Will hate YOU for that.

And will try to press you to forget VAT all the time. This system introduces a incredible amount of anger and friction in the process of selling a product, that must to be as straightforward and easy as possible. And is a bless to the bigco competitors.

That leads us to the parallel VAT-less market that will be created in no time.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#492

Post by dmitriid »

kortilla wrote: post #472
dmitriid wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, those popups are illegal under GDPR. So yes, it's a failure of law enforcement, but doesn't make the law itself unreasonable.

If a law is realistically unenforceable then it’s unreasonable. A law that requires some agency in Europe to police all of the websites around the world is pretty fucking stupid.

> If a law is realistically unenforceable then it’s unreasonable.

It is enforceable, and there have already been fines.

> A law that requires some agency in Europe to police all of the websites

No, they are not going to police every website in the world.

Once again, if it 6 years later you still couldn't read and understand a rather reasonably written law with multiple explanations and examples, you are a part of the problem.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#493

Post by dukeyukey »

wyager wrote: post #211
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

> a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% The median American is much richer than the median European.

This isn't (quite) true.

On a continent,-wide level it is, and US incomes are significantly higher. But US wealth levels are below most of Western Europe, including France, the UK, Ireland, even Italy and Spain. Plus Canada/Australia/New Zealand for good measure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_...

That said, I thoroughly disagree with the characterisation of the US as "a third world country with a Gucci belt".

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#494

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #492
kortilla wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a law is realistically unenforceable then it’s unreasonable. A law that requires some agency in Europe to police all of the websites around the world is pretty fucking stupid.

> If a law is realistically unenforceable then it’s unreasonable. It is enforceable, and there have already been fines. > A law that requires some agency in Europe to police all of the websites No, they are not going to police every website in the world. Once again, if it 6 years later you still couldn't read and understand a rather reasonably written law with multiple explanations and examples, you are a part of the…

After 6 years, Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup everyone else is using.

The problem is the law. It's a crappy law.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#495

Post by nickpp »

Beldin wrote: post #471
GekkePrutser wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's required for all types of tracking including but not exclusively cookies. Only days collection that is absolutely required to provide the service may be collected without consent and for that purpose only.

To put that slightly differently: warnings/popups are never needed unless you're taking data from your visitor which has nothing to do with the function(s) your offering the visitor. The GDPR spells out when you're allowed to collect data; asking for consent is basically its emergency escape hatch. You only need to do that if there is absolutely no (functional) reason to get that data, but you want it anyway.

GDPR doesn't spell out anything. It's the most vague f-ing BS I have ever seen. There are no definitions, no guidelines.

6 years later there is no consensus on simple questions like website analytics which is probably the most common usage scenario for the kind of data GDPR covers.

This law is beyond bad.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#496

Post by [deleted] »

jbverschoor wrote: post #475
tluyben2 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried opening one in the US. That was not fun. What is the difference? As a Dutch person I had one in PT in 30 minutes. As a Dutch person opening in the US, AU and HK, it was a hell. What is the difference? If you are from those places, they won't know what you mean as it will be easy for this. As a Dutch person, you find it hard to get an account in the EU? Maybe if your info fails KYC, but otherwise it is trivial…

It’s only trivial as long as you have a single entity. Try adding a foundation, having foreign shareholders, different layers. I’ve seen and heard of 9+ months, and a ton of paperwork

[deleted]

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#497

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #462
nickpp wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the law was so bad even its creators can’t implement/understand/respect it.

The law is very straightforward and can be quite easily implemented by anyone. Notable exceptions are finance institutions where GDPR is superseded by relevant financial laws of each country. There are explainers, compliance checklists, whatever you want to implement it. It was three years before it went in effect, and it's been 3 years since it went into effect. If you don't understand it by now, you definitely don'…

The only straightforward thing about this law is how ignorant were its creators.

The cost of implementing it was in the billions. The human time cost paid for all those damn cookie popups we keep having to click on is probably already in the thousands of life-times wasted, and it keeps on growing.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#498

Post by tluyben2 »

jbverschoor wrote: post #475
tluyben2 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried opening one in the US. That was not fun. What is the difference? As a Dutch person I had one in PT in 30 minutes. As a Dutch person opening in the US, AU and HK, it was a hell. What is the difference? If you are from those places, they won't know what you mean as it will be easy for this. As a Dutch person, you find it hard to get an account in the EU? Maybe if your info fails KYC, but otherwise it is trivial…

It’s only trivial as long as you have a single entity. Try adding a foundation, having foreign shareholders, different layers. I’ve seen and heard of 9+ months, and a ton of paperwork

And that is not true in the US? I don't know but it takes a lot of effort in countries we did it outside of the EU. US banks are generally more gung ho on money laundering prevention and such so it seems hard to believe complexity will narrow the gap.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#499

Post by dmitriid »

nickpp wrote: post #494
dmitriid wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a law is realistically unenforceable then it’s unreasonable. It is enforceable, and there have already been fines. > A law that requires some agency in Europe to police all of the websites No, they are not going to police every website in the world. Once again, if it 6 years later you still couldn't read and understand a rather reasonably written law with multiple explanations and examples, you are a part of the…

After 6 years, Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup everyone else is using. The problem is the law. It's a crappy law.

> Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup

Because Google is in the business of dark patterns and wholesale data collection. They couldn't care less about user privacy.

Besides, their entire system is built on the premise of wholesale data collection. Their own engineers admit that they don't know how and where the data is collected and de-google their phones. [1]

> The problem is the law. It's a crappy law.

As I'm saying, you are a part of the problem.

[1] https://twitter.com/jason_kint/status/1398353211220807682

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#500

Post by dukeyukey »

jbverschoor wrote: post #379
mnouquet wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, everybody wants to be a manager because mere developers is not high enough status. In the US, a 45yo DB engineer is akin to highly skilled wizard.

Yep.. you get paid shit as a dev here unless you run your own business.. has always been like that, will always be like that. Europe will never be big in software. We have nice livable cities, and we have old cultures, that’s about all what’s good here

> Europe will never be big in software.

After the Bay Area, NYC and Beijing, London has the most startup funding of any city in the world, and the UK as a whole has the 3rd highest number of unicorns, after the US and China.

Parts of Europe are doing badly, others are doing ok (but could do better!).

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