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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#491

Post by Aachen »

notatoad wrote: post #215
macksd wrote: post #15

Absolutely agree with everything Linus says here. But I'm almost equally concerned that there's an awful lot of people on the pro-science bandwagon who don't actually support science, but simply don't tolerate dissent or questioning, and that's unscientific and potentially harmful too. I scanned most of the Pfizer trial and was wondering why we expected the immunity after the vaccine to last longer than natural immun…

If you have academic curiosity about that vaccines that's fine, but it is irresponsible to be voicing that in a way that could discourage people from getting a vaccine in the middle of a global health emergency. Qualified people agree that the vaccines save lives. People should get them. Unqualified people expressing their curiosity about the details is something like the guy in the backseat of a crashing car loudly…

I see what you mean and was wondering the same myself, but I'm not convinced it's really for the best to say we should not be asking questions and apply self-censorship as a general rule during some period that lasts multiple years.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#492

Post by tome »

Jemaclus wrote: post #211
bitL wrote: post #122

I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term im…

> I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. I wouldn't say alpha testers and probably not even beta testers. They did clinical trials for these vaccines in 2020 with tens of thousands of volunteers long before these were approved by the FDA and other reg…

> mRNA vaccines have been around for ~40 years with pretty well identified side-effects and risk profiles

I'm having trouble reconciling your statement with Wikipedia's claim that the Pfizer vaccine is "the first mRNA vaccine to be authorized for use in humans"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#493

Post by Nursie »

tekknik wrote: post #453
mahogany wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No it doesn't. The entire history of Western Liberalism—since the Magna Carta onwards—teaches us that censorship is quite literally never the answer. What do you mean by "works"? Deplatforming seems to work if it's goal is to simply limit the spread of a message. Whether or not that's good or bad is a separate question. Do you think Alex Jones has just as big of a viewership as when he was on Youtube? Are there jus…

> Deplatforming seems to work if it's goal is to simply limit the spread of a message. Deplatforming seems to work if it's goal is to simply limit free speech and control the narrative. There fixed that for you. > Alex Jones has just as big of a viewership as when he was on Youtube? Alex Jones got his youtube viewership from his radio show, he’s still quite active. All this did was prove those that believed him that…

> Deplatforming seems to work if it's goal is to simply limit free speech

You're still perfectly free to spew your crazy, you just don't get to stand on my lawn to do so.

Good, old-fashioned conservative value that. You have never had a right to use someone else's infrastructure like this, and hopefully never will, as that is a scary precedent that doesn't respect the rights of creators and owners of such platforms.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#494

Post by baobabKoodaa »

quenix wrote: post #487
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit disingenuous of you to state that anti-vax people "don't care". Have you actually engaged with any of them? They probably care a lot more than you and me about this stuff, they've just gone to the wrong conclusions. Also, you generally support Linus curtailing his asshole behavior, but you want to make an exception for anti-vax people? Why? You want them to burrow down harder into their anti-science bunker…

I don't think that the point is to convince the insane anti-vaxxer in the mailing list. They are too far gone. Rather, it's to prevent further radicalisation.

Radicalization is not a binary feature. Outcasting people who are one foot inside the anti-vax camp can push them into the crazy zone both feet in.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#495

Post by baobabKoodaa »

SECProto wrote: post #265
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "magic" from vaccinations comes from vaccinating most of the population so that the epidemic fizzles out. In that scenario it doesn't matter that much whether you personally are vaccinated or not. An unvaccinated person benefits from herd immunity like a vaccinated person does. From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad.

> From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad. Absolutely false. The disease can and does have severe and sometimes long-lasting impacts on young healthy people. The mRNA vaccines don't have any impact worse than a sore arm. And we aren't getting to a herd immunity level of vaccination if young people are unvaccinated.

> The disease can and does have severe and sometimes long-lasting impacts on young healthy people.

The context that we were discussing was "achieved herd immunity, epidemic goes away". In that context the healthy young people do not get any severe and long-lasting impacts, because they don't get the disease at all, thanks to the herd immunity provided by mass vaccinations.

> And we aren't getting to a herd immunity level of vaccination if young people are unvaccinated.

This is true. If you were to say "it's your responsibility to take a vaccine, even though the risk/reward ratio is bad", then that would be an argument that I would respect. However, that's not the argument you're making. You're trying to claim that the risk/reward ratio from a personal standpoint is good, which I disagree with.

> The mRNA vaccines don't have any impact worse than a sore arm.

This is false. I personally know people who have had considerable side effects from the vaccine ("getting sick").

That said, I'm personally taking the vaccine today.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#496

Post by baobabKoodaa »

Izikiel43 wrote: post #372
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "magic" from vaccinations comes from vaccinating most of the population so that the epidemic fizzles out. In that scenario it doesn't matter that much whether you personally are vaccinated or not. An unvaccinated person benefits from herd immunity like a vaccinated person does. From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad.

>> From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad. You are right, all those children 60 years ago shouldn't have gotten the polio vaccine, look at them now, being disabled and whatnot, that vaccine was super risky /s

I wasn't talking about the risk/reward ratio of a child taking a polio vaccine 60 years ago.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#497

Post by Rochus »

pell wrote: post #488
Rochus wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It had a bit more time to develop And it wasn't planned, but evolved. No plan, no developer. Hard to imagine. > the genetic material of a human is just a single gigabyte Indeed apples and oranges [*]. As long as we don't know all functions of this molecular machinery (and there is a very good chance we will never know all those functions) all comparisons with programming languages are pure speculations. Some "subsy…

>And it wasn't planned, but evolved. No plan, no developer. Hard to imagine. Explains all those bugs and bad design choices, doesn't it.

> Explains all those bugs and bad design choices

If there is any choice at all in natural selection, it is only in the choice of the reproductive partner. Apparently, the result of the selection process is not so bad, otherwise we would not have survived. Of course, we still have the chance to go extinct.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#498

Post by DynamicStatic »

nemothekid wrote: post #368
caeril wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP should have said " or with co-morbidities". Digging into the A year of largely ineffective masking hysteria and not one noteworthy public health figure suggested putting down the donut to reduce the risk of death from COVID-19. We shuttered gyms and discouraged outdoor activity instead.

> not one noteworthy public health figure suggested putting down the donut to reduce the risk of death from COVID-19 Great point. The overweight should have just lost 50 pounds in 30 days.

Not sure if exactly that fast is possible but at least in 2 months it is.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#499

Post by baobabKoodaa »

nneonneo wrote: post #270
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "magic" from vaccinations comes from vaccinating most of the population so that the epidemic fizzles out. In that scenario it doesn't matter that much whether you personally are vaccinated or not. An unvaccinated person benefits from herd immunity like a vaccinated person does. From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad.

Sure, until the vaccination rate falls below the herd immunity threshold, whereupon outbreaks pretty much immediately occur. This has been seen repeatedly with measles, for example, as it is highly transmissible and it doesn’t take much of a drop in vaccination rates to make outbreaks likely. Not taking a vaccine if you’re young and healthy is a purely selfish move. Not taking a vaccine should be reserved for only th…

> Not taking a vaccine if you’re young and healthy is a purely selfish move. Not taking a vaccine should be reserved for only those people who cannot take a vaccine: those who are far too young, or who are immunocompromised. Everyone else should vaccinate to protect the truly vulnerable.

I fully agree! So be honest and make that argument! Don't say "taking this vaccine is good for you", be honest and say "taking this vaccine is not necessarily that good for you, but we all have a responsibility to do it, and then we all benefit from herd immunity".

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#500

Post by baobabKoodaa »

moultano wrote: post #259
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "magic" from vaccinations comes from vaccinating most of the population so that the epidemic fizzles out. In that scenario it doesn't matter that much whether you personally are vaccinated or not. An unvaccinated person benefits from herd immunity like a vaccinated person does. From the viewpoint of a healthy young person, the risk/reward ratio of taking a vaccine is bad.

No way. We need nearly everyone to get the vaccine, with the abstainers purely randomly distributed, in order to reach herd immunity, which we aren't going to reach, so it's going to keep spreading endemically, indefinitely. If you aren't vaccinated, you will inevitably get it, if not this winter, than the next, or the next. Even for healthy young people, the risk of the vaccine is orders and orders of magnitude less…

I disagree with your assessment regarding herd immunity. I expect Finland to reach herd immunity this year, with occasional outbreaks in following years. In this scenario, the risk of an individual contracting the disease is minuscule. That makes the risk/reward ratio of personal vaccination... not that good.
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