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Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

economist.com

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Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#491

Post by randomopining »

oh_sigh wrote: post #463
elthyrior wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much true. I-70 into the mountains is a parking lot on Friday and Saturday, and basically the same leaving the mountains on Sunday. Turns what should be a three to four drive to get to the western slope into six to seven some days.

You're complaining that too many people are making a Fri-Sun trip into the mountains, and it is making your Fri-Sun trip into the mountains take too long?

He's not complaining lol just stating a fact. If the fact is that it takes 7 hours to drive into the mountains... that's important to know, if you're thinking of moving there.

All the OutdoorsBro(tm) that I know are moving to Denver, so idk if I would even like it.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#492

Post by lotsofpulp »

ihyfhgyfhth wrote: post #484
lotsofpulp wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wilderness areas were maintained by not having a lot of people. US added 100M people in the last 40 years, and a lot of them seem to like the Western states' scenery, terrain, and weather. 1980 census shows just over 40M in the west: https://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1981-02.pdf page 6 2019 figures show nearly 80M in the west: https://www.census.gov/popclock/data_tables.php?component=gr... https://…

I suggest without proof that the west could accommodate more people without adverse effects on the environment if construction preferences were different. The new construction methods, building types, and communal land management strategies that are preferred by implants have an outsized effect on the environment. Compare the new construction in Vail to the older buildings, which can still be seen in smaller towns. I…

I agree it's certainly possible. But I've seen a lot of housing developments since the 1980s in the Western cities' suburbs that are at odds with conservationism. I think it happened to not be felt until relatively recently because there was some "slack" available due to lower populations to allow those large lots to exist and not feel crowded or encroach on the environment.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is a politically tenable solution since everyone likes their own personal vehicles, and for that you need a driveway or garage, and for that you need space and roads, and that does not scale well with population increase.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#493

Post by throwaway316943 »

ksdale wrote: post #451
throwaway316943 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost like it’s progressively getting worse as more people crowd in.

The very, very easy way to fix that is to build enough housing. Places don't suck because a lot of people live there, they suck for lots of reasons that are orthogonal to the population.

That’s very subjective, my definition of suckiness definitely factors in population density.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#494

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dendrite9 wrote: post #60
wwweston wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As much as I'd love to work for a FAANG, retire early, and buy a large house in an idyllic mountain town, I'd hate for that same town to loose its historical roots and what makes it that special idyllic mountain town in the first place. It's already arguably happened; fruit orchards and irrigation turns were big part of the milieu in Orem/Provo a few decades back, and they're all but absent now, and in general the…

I assume you know about the orchards of Silicon Valley? It's an interesting bit of history to me. I didn't realize the same thing was happening along the Wasatch Front, but it makes sense. E: forgot the link https://www.growingproduce.com/fruits/the-last-of-his-kind-f...

And the orchards of Orange County, California.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#495

Post by dcow »

giantg2 wrote: post #464
zip1234 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every place changes regardless of people trying to preserve them in amber. The 'forced out of your lifelong' home thing is tough but I haven't seen any good solutions to it. California absolutely messed up their state with their property tax changes that turned home ownership into feudalism. Good intentions to help the old people stay in their homes but it means that the new people moving in support the people that l…

"However, in essentially 0 places in the US that are hot housing markets do they allow as much housing as is demanded." And thus my question/comments about controlling the demand side, as the supply side changes haven't worked well. "Good intentions to help the old people stay in their homes but it means that the new people moving in support the people that lived there earlier." Well, the system of funding the school…

The supply side changes haven't worked because people are selfish and the system is perverted. “I’ll see your family struggle with gentrification before I lose my bay views and stupidly inflated house value.”

The problem is boomers treating property as an investment vehicle the value of which must go up up up. Introduce affordable housing to cool the market off? Not over my dead body if it means people won’t be clawing tooth and nail for properties in my neighborhood anymore.

The incentives are so backwards. I’ve got mine fuck yours. I don't see how demand side regulation addresses any of this...

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#496

Post by randcraw »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #120
eysquared wrote: post #24

There seems to be a lot of negativity in the comments so far. Is this not the dream that is often touted on hacker news? Work at a FAANG and "retire" somewhere more affordable? I'm personally doing just this. I was lucky enough to land a good job out of college, buy a house in a desired area, and see it appreciate in the last 10 years. This increase plus the birth of my kids left me wondering if there wasn't a better…

You're seeing negativity because it's getting harder and harder to deny that this "dream" involves the locals getting screwed when tech monopoly money turns their local economy upside down. Sure the guy who had the foresight to start a brewery wins but everyone else loses. You know what the end game of this looks like? It looks like Vail CO, Cape Cod MA, coastal Long Island and CT, the Hamptons, wealthy retirement ar…

It's understandable that locals see no upside to this trend. These remote-work or second-home urban expats don't add new jobs locally except perhaps wait staff at restaurants or boutique shops. Real estate costs rise. Rents go up. Property taxes climb as do the costs of basic services. People like them exit (as do the budget-based businesses that served them) as the cost of living rises. For locals who aren't well-heeled, gentrification of this kind is strictly a lose-lose deal.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#497

Post by lotsofpulp »

dredmorbius wrote: post #370
lotsofpulp wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of increased prices is to incentivize more supply to come into the market. If prices do not rise with demand (and static supply), then you’re left with a market where certain buyers are lucky (or connected) and some don’t get anything.

ERCOT's dismal failure the past several months has once again shown the fallacy of this thinking. Raising prices to infinity cannot induce supply of a good or service for which there is simply no capacity to provision. Nor does discrimination by price for life's essentials result in fair or equitable distribution when there is a tremendous inequality in purchasing power among the population, much if that itself the r…

>Raising prices to infinity cannot induce supply of a good or service for which there is simply no capacity to provision.

If I understand the situation correctly, Texas regulators opted for lower electricity prices by not connecting to the national grid. In a sense, they opted to forgo paying for insurance for an event like what happened this year. Is this correct?

Also, there is no fallacy, because higher prices do not mean supply will increase. But rising prices are a signal that there is demand if more supply were to come in. Sometimes, it's not practical for that to happen, but it is, over a sufficiently large timeframe, a good signal that alerts others that it might be worth it to jump in participate in that market.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#498

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dublinben wrote: post #409
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unless you are looking for low cost housing.

How do you lower the cost of housing in desirable places? Make them less desirable? Prevent people from moving there? Build more housing?

You don’t, you can’t build your way out of these kinds of problems, not without some sort of government intervention (like Singapore as mentioned before).

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#499

Post by shoemakersteve »

consensusform wrote: post #275
bedhead wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year I moved from a top 3 city to a small mountain town in Colorado. In my experience, your hostility is extremely common in small towns that have big seasonal influxes. I continue to be amazed by the overt disdain long-time locals have for second home owners and relatively newer full-time residents. The one constant is: "Everything was great until shortly after I relocated here and you people moved in." A week…

That sentiment isn't unique to small towns either. Residents of Austin, TX have been complaining that the city changed or got too crowded shortly after they moved in, whether that was a year ago or decades ago. People who moved to SF in 2010 complained about the people moving there in 2015. Same thing happens at a neighborhood or district level too. Everybody feels like they were the last person to move in while it w…

There's this song I like called "Austin, TX Blues" by Netherfriends and judging by the lyrics I'm guessing this is a common sentiment.

  I mean is anybody from here?
  Have you ever met anybody from here?
  Have you ever seen so many condos in your whole damn life
  That were built here in one year?

  Everyone I know that was born here is dope as fuck
  And everybody else sucks
I'm pretty sure the song is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but still.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#500

Post by tayo42 »

davidw wrote: post #327
mark_l_watson wrote: post #281

My wife and I traded living near a beach and lagoon in San Diego country for a small but nice house in a mountain tourist town (Sedona Arizona). That was back in 1998. Except for some time working as a contractor at Google in Mountain View and managing a deep learning team for Capital One in Urbana/Champaign IL, we have lived a quiet life in the mountains since 1998. One reason for my success in being happy here is t…

I think this concept of "acceptance of other people" is key. There seems to be a sort of cultural meme, especially in the western US, that everyone should be able to have a ton of land to themselves, but that's simply not realistic. "Beautiful, scenic place; solitude; easy access to population centers" - pick two. There's a popular Wilderness Area about a 30 minute drive from Bend, Oregon and people act all surprised…

I don't think just acceptance of tourists is enough. It's easy to deal with people, the problem is they act horribly. No one wants to educate people, that's confrontational.
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