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The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

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Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#491

Post by COGlory »

kllrnohj wrote: post #238
mrob wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against Wayland because it forces compositing on all windowed applications. I'll stay on Xorg as long as possible because I'm not willing to sacrifice latency for no tearing.

All your stuff is already composited, and if done well it doesn't add much latency at all. You're still paying it in X, just badly, and with none of the upsides (eg, no tearing). Even if you're trying to avoid a compositor, none of the UI toolkits are participating in that nonsense.

Nvidia stereo 3d only works if the compositor is disabled in Xorg.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#492

Post by horsawlarway »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #471
horsawlarway wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

Just curious, what was your browser again?

I use the Ozone build of Chromium, available on AUR - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/chromium-ozone/

It's a painful first compile, but the only issues I've hit have been a few menus in the extension debugging screens that are too small.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#493

Post by Avamander »

acgkmopvvgvmgv wrote: post #273
Avamander wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is Mir now? Using Wayland. It could have not gone that way. Now we've got two equally bad alternatives out there. > That's one of the reasons a decade later you still have this much FUD. I don't think you know what FUD means.

Nice ignore the part where they realized Mir was useless. They even went on an edit spree in their wiki page. If Mir was so good and superior they would just keep developing it. Isn't that obvious? If the company who already spent all this dev time aka money on Mir doesn't believe in it, why would anybody else? They were even eating their own dog food and had some major industry pull at their disposal. The answer is…

> Nice ignore the part where they realized Mir was useless.

> If Mir was so good and superior they would just keep developing it. Isn't that obvious?

No, that's an arbitrary conclusion you've made. There are multiple reasons why a project might be killed, even if it's a good one. Canonical killed Ubuntu Touch but now it's gaining traction again because we have things like the Librem5 and PinePhone. Premature if you ask me but it makes sense as a business decision.

If we look across industry, would you say killing Google Reader was because it was inferior to others? I wouldn't.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#494

Post by ivanbakel »

nsajko wrote: post #132

If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…

> These seem to be intentional design decisions (marketed as being necessary for security, but really being power-user hostile)

That's an unnecessarily abrasive view: the Wayland protocol designers do not hate power users. But allowing programs to constantly take in arbitrary input & output information in the background, as well as simulate arbitrary input to other programs, is an obvious and glaring security flaw. Unfortunately, that forbids general-purpose screenshotting and key-rebinding programs - but there is no sensible middle ground.

>Wayland is designed with the thought that users download random applications from the interwebz which are not trustworthy and run them.

I appreciate that the average HN poster, and to a lesser extent the average Linux user, does not do this - but many, many Windows users do. In order to actually break into a mass desktop market, there has to be consideration of the ways people who do not currently use Linux behave.

I would even argue that lots of current Linux users are guilty of this - how many Arch users are checking the contents of PKGBUILDs from the AUR? How many Linux users, when searching for the solution to some problem with their desktop, have blindly copy-pasted commands from some support post - or worse still, just downloaded a "fix it" script to run?

Wayland is built on sane assumptions, because it also aims to cater to a not-insignificant part of the desktop market. That the response of an X11 supporter is "simply run the correct programs" show how little they have understood the goals and successes of Wayland as a project. It is not X12, and some of us are grateful for that.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#495

Post by horsawlarway »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #468
horsawlarway wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

Cannot say Wayland works smoothly on my triple-monitor setup. One of the monitors sometimes stops working randomly, and wakes up to display Plymouth screen when I reboot the thing. Dell Precision 7520 with an AMD GPU. The degree of flakiness is different depending on whether you're on Plasma or GNOME, but it's there nonetheless.

I mean, my data point of one isn't all that helpful if you're having issues, but triple monitors do indeed work on my end.

I switch between a station that has a 4k display next to a standard 1920x1080 display as well as my laptop display (3200x1800) and my home setup with the laptop and 2 4k displays.

I had an issue on the 4k displays when I attempted to run two displays and a usb hub on a single thunderbolt line, but that wasn't Wayland, that was me being dumb: The thunderbolt protocol only support 40Gb/s and each monitor uses 20Gb/s and the hub eats another 10Gb/s. If the hub got detected last, it dropped to usb 2, if one of the monitors came online last, it would drop to 30hz refresh rate. Frankly - I was a little floored when I realized that I was the one being dumb and the system was mostly still just making things work. Just for shits and giggles I booted up an x-session after to see what it does. The answer is lots of black screen.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#496

Post by ravenstine »

horsawlarway wrote: post #476
ravenstine wrote: post #180

If Wayland is the future, then the future was 12 years ago. Since it hasn't really caught on or solved the same problems that X.Org accomplished a long time ago, it seems kind of pointless to continue pursuing it at this point. In my opinion, the best thing about X.Org is that it's no longer changing. I remember installing updates for X.Org all the time and booting to a black screen on multiple occasions.

Ubuntu is shipping Wayland by default now. I vastly prefer Wayland on every machine I've used both X and Wayland on (and on laptops, it's frankly hard to describe how much better it is). Basically - Wayland isn't the future, Wayland is the NOW . If you want a great touchpad experience on linux? - Wayland If you want multi-touch and gesture support out of the box? - Wayland If you want multi-monitor support and mixed…

Doesn't Ubuntu use Mir, not Wayland?

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#497

Post by alacombe »

horsawlarway wrote: post #467
boudin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox native support is pretty much here already (I've been using it for quite a time now and it works really well). The only missing piece that is not merged yet is screen sharing unfortunately. It's available on Fedora's Firefox build. All GTK3 apps runs well on Wayland too. Qt apps runs well but it doesn't feel as polished (I mainly have issues when I use 2 screen with different scaling). The last big things are…

Yup, I've been running the ozone AUR release of chromium for a while, and outside of a couple remaining rough spots (mainly menus used for extension development/debugging) it's been great. I run a 4k display and a 1920x1080 display side by side, and X is utter garbage at handling it.

> I run a 4k display and a 1920x1080 display side by side, and X is utter garbage at handling it.

I'm running 3 physical monitors, split to 4 "virtual" monitors with overall 3 different resolutions and I have no problem whatsoever (minus dealing with nouveau on 1060).

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#498

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

ludocode wrote: post #488
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannot say Wayland works smoothly on my triple-monitor setup. One of the monitors sometimes stops working randomly, and wakes up to display Plymouth screen when I reboot the thing. Dell Precision 7520 with an AMD GPU. The degree of flakiness is different depending on whether you're on Plasma or GNOME, but it's there nonetheless.

I'm guessing that's an AMD GPU thing and not a Wayland thing. I run a triple-monitor setup with an AMD GPU on X.org and I have a similar problem: every once in a while when I boot my PC one of the monitors just doesn't come to life. Restarting X usually fixes it.

But the bootscreens work! X11 withmodesetting ddx works!

Moreover: when I pass through the dGPU to a virtualized macOS, all monitors I plug in just work!

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#499

Post by dotancohen »

horsawlarway wrote: post #462
bitwize wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: I call systems like this CADT-compliant after Jamie Zawinski's Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers idea. Wayland is a system for which CADT-compliance (and maybe security) trumps nearly all other concerns. No surprise, the primary use case for Wayland is and was always GNOME -- the very system for which Zawinski coined CADT.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

On Kubuntu 20.04, and honestly ever since I first tried it from Kubuntu 16.04 on up, multi-monitor support has been terrific for me. Maybe Gnome has problems, but not KDE on X.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#500

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

copperx wrote: post #469
horsawlarway wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

You need to purchase an AMD graphics card for Wayland, though.

Not necessarily. I’ve got a WX4150 and Wayland has problems with it.
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