Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#491

Post by appleflaxen » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

laingc wrote: post #419

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

One of my best friends is an academic economist working in this space, so while I won’t pretend to be an expert, I have spent a goodly amount of time discussing this with one. With no disrespect intended to you personally, this policy you propose makes no sense. Without putting words in your mouth, it looks to me like “two things I as a progressive like the idea of”, rather than a coherent economic policy. Carbon tax…

> Carbon taxes unquestionably fall hardest on the poor

the central point of your argument is flawed: the rich use orders of magnitude more carbon than the poor do.

further: even if it were true, the goal of a carbon tax is not to be progressive, but to disincentivize fossil fuel production, and to drive behavior toward less harmful alternatives.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#492

Post by tomp » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:39 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #333

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

You tax something you want to reduce. Since carbon emissions are associated with most travel and great-tasting food, it sounds like paying people to sit at home, watch TV and drink themselves into depression.

This is a nasty false dichotomy and you should be ashamed of it!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#493

Post by dcewcrrec » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:39 AM UTC

In disbelief at this thread. People work because they WANT TO. Work is a natural human desire. It's easy to say we'd all just sit around playing games, but after a while you'd go insane. Work is never going to stop under UBI, or any sort of social welfare program.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#494

Post by rumanator » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #146

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

What is so bad about reduced "work"? Maybe people who are currently working at stupid, unnecessary jobs will make art and poetry and music. Or maybe invent cool things. Or maybe just relax and learn about themselves. I have never understood this obsession with 100% employment.

> I have never understood this obsession with 100% employment.

Employment means income and tax revenue and social security funding. 100% employment means more people have personal income, the nation's social security system is not exhausted, and the state has more revenue to invest in public policies.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#495

Post by mgoetzke » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:43 AM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I am not a fan of using a Tax of something bad to fund something we want to have. The Tax should be directly related to cleanup efforts of the Bad thing™, otherwise you get a dependency where the Bad Thing™ is required to keep up funding.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#496

Post by alltakendamned » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

I've always wondered if UBI would not simply lead to inflation. I cannot imagine that prices would not increase if suddenly everyone had additional funds and could "pay extra".

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#497

Post by dgellow » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:51 AM UTC

birksherty wrote: post #387

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

People who complain are the ones who already already have good stable income, privileged. They don't have issue when someone owns billions.

I don’t have issues with people owning billions, AND I’m for a UBI (though not in the US, you have way too many issues to fix before even considering one IMHO).

Weird isn’t it? Maybe things aren’t as black and white as you said and nuances are possible.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#498

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:52 AM UTC

megameter wrote: post #309

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

Henry George had it right: Use land value tax to fund UBI. Abracadabra, all the birds get killed with one stone: Real estate prices calm down, income inequality calms down, environmental costs are valued into use, and poverty is eliminated.

Gradually increase tax on rental income until its undesirable to own property you don't live in.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#499

Post by new2628 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:54 AM UTC

d3nj4l wrote: post #369

prostoalex wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. You might be in the minority of people with mature enough emotional response and ability to deal with stress. What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? It seems that UBI provides few precautions…

You can read about the results of UBI experiments in Finland and Canada: Finland: https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN... Canada: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgot... This sentence in the BBC article above is great: > In particular, Forget was struck by the improvements in health outcomes over the four years. There was an 8.5% decline in hospitalisations – primarily…

I would love to take part in such an experiment and be on UBI while the rest of society is not.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#500

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 6:55 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #333

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

You tax something you want to reduce. Since carbon emissions are associated with most travel and great-tasting food, it sounds like paying people to sit at home, watch TV and drink themselves into depression.

Yes stay home, eat healthy low carbon foods, read, study, exercise, create things, be productive. Make the most of life and enjoy it.