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Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

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Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#491

Post by mr_toad »

at_a_remove wrote: post #35

I wonder if we'll hear the "they're a private company, they can do what they want, it is only censorship if the government does it" routine. I remember about a decade ago when certain parties were so concerned with voices being silenced and "erasure." The same people are now cheering when Facebook, Twitter, and the like shut down certain kinds of speech, with great discretion as to how the "rules" are implemented. Th…

> it is only censorship if the government does it

Or if a government forces a private company to do it.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#492

Post by ekianjo »

guilamu wrote: post #490
ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

I totally agree with you, there's a very high probability that the Chinese gov is recording everything. But is that any better than being 100 % sure that the US gov is doing it? I mean, what is the point of "the Chinese may be listening this is horrible!" when we know for a fact that the US are listening and most probably multiple european countries. Nowadays, you must assume that whatever you do online is recorded b…

I am more worried about dictatorships recording everything than other regimes. Does not excuse recording at all, just an appreciation of the level of risk.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#493

Post by virgilp »

brians wrote: post #247
virgilp wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed in the Alex Stamos twitter thread. It _is_ E2E encrypted. And from what I understand the "promise" is a technological promise, not a process promise; you can check the exact terms of the promise in the paper.

The paper’s ideas are not yet implemented. Right now, it’s encrypted to whatever keys Zoom likes, including the PRC’s. Same system as Apple’s or Google’s

OK, but if we were to take this stance it than literally the whole thread is pointless debate, right? It started with this:

> Zoom CEO Eric Yuan said in early June that the company has chosen not to encrypt free calls in order to cooperate with law enforcement.

The entire debate is about the not-yet-implemented E2E encryption (that's where Zoom "does not encrypt free calls"). And the Alex Stamos thread explains very well both why that is a sensible choice, and how they will implement E2E encryption& what are the limitations.

If we're discussing about current implementation, it doesn't make sense to be outraged that "Zoom doesn't offer encryption for free calls" - if we talk about E2E encryption, it doesn't offer it for anyone; and if we talk just about HTTPS, it offers it to everyone. So in fact we must've been discussing the future implementation not the current one - right?

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#495

Post by jaekash »

gonehome wrote: post #84
Twixes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I don't like consolidation of tech, I've had really good experiences with Google Meet. No scummy practices like forcing users to pretend that the app installer doesn't download just to connect from the browser either. What are Zoom's advantages?

I haven't personally used Google Meet, but part of what drew me to Zoom: - General preference for non-ad supported business model. - Google Meet wasn't an option until very recently. - I really dislike hangouts and how it leaks chat all over Gmail (among other things), and this has biased me against their other products. - Similarly, I was a huge fan of Google Voice which was way ahead of its time and which they aban…

> - General preference for non-ad supported business model.

I don't see how google meet is ad supported, but even if it was, there are paid options, so you are welcome to pay for it.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#496

Post by disillusioned »

matwood wrote: post #176
gonehome wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't personally used Google Meet, but part of what drew me to Zoom: - General preference for non-ad supported business model. - Google Meet wasn't an option until very recently. - I really dislike hangouts and how it leaks chat all over Gmail (among other things), and this has biased me against their other products. - Similarly, I was a huge fan of Google Voice which was way ahead of its time and which they aban…

> I've anecdotally heard Meet had worse video/audio quality from friends. The best part of Zoom taking off is suddenly Meet appears to be getting new features almost daily. It's like a product Google suddenly cares about again. Audio and video quality have also greatly improved. It's really like a completely different product from 6 months ago.

I think the pandemic has brought into harsh relief how critical some of those quality of life features were, and advanced their urgency within Google. They're adding so many millions of users per day, and already had a strong initial base product, that building these additional zoom-competitive features is a no-brainer.

And Google Meet is able to bring to bear some of their absolutely amazing advances with ML for things like predictive sound for dropped packets and the new denoiser function they've launched, along with live captioning and some other just incredible features.

There are a few little things that bug me with Google Meet: their newly introduced grid view doesn't display yourself as one of the tiles, for some reason. I don't want to pay $25/mo/user for an enterprise account _just_ for the video recording feature, which I will have to do come September, if they don't extend the current offer to make that available to all GSuite tiers. And I wish it recorded the transcription. But overall, it's a pretty great product, and its tight integration with Google Calendar and Slack, along with its frankly fantastic meeting room hardware has made it our software of choice for some time now for conferencing.

Plus, it's a sunk cost for GSuite users. Aside from a licensing fee for the meeting rooms, I'm not paying an _additional_ per-user monthly fee, which for a small consultancy like mine, matters.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#497

Post by close04 »

psexec wrote: post #432
close04 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least Skype and Webex don't accidentally route your calls through China. I don't really like Skype but Webex shines compared to either Zoom or Skype. And I'm talking meetings with triple digit attendance, meetings with dozens of simultaneous breakout sessions and screen sharing, etc. By far a better experience than Zoom. The thing that Zoom really has going for it is that it's free and heavily marketed. This made…

Except that Skype non-accidentally routes your calls through Microsoft's servers, and it was originally a P2P application. End-to-end encryption too started being "complicated", "unfeasible" and "unnecessary" after they acquired the company. Thanks, but no thanks.

But that's exactly the point, others do things more transparently and if you don't like them you're at least in a better position to make an informed decision. Plus there's a major difference between Microsoft and China. Take the current article for example.

You're willing to hand-waive all of the many, many proven, and intentionally hidden major issues with Zoom but you suddenly become worried that Skype works as advertised, poorly as that may be? Would you apply the same principle to your food and taking the one that lies on the label about dangerous ingredients? Or do principles change with accounts?

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#498

Post by CamperBob2 »

smolder wrote: post #239
at_a_remove wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have stopped regarding it as a fallacy. It seems to be something of a predictive measure at this point.

It's a fallacy to say that with a "slope" of states A B and C, with C implying B has been reached, that moving from A to B means you'll necessarily go to C next. The fallacy doesn't mean we can't go from B to C or that it isn't easier to get to C from B than A.

Which is why it's called the "Slippery Slope," not the "Sheer Cliff" or the "Trap Door" or the "Gravity Well."

Whatever ancient neckbeard decided it was a fallacy clearly didn't get out much.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#499

Post by thePunisher »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #281
ljm wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my workplace and from my perspective, I don't know how Zoom became trustworthy in the first place except through growth hacking and selling iPads with their software on it under the 'Zoom Rooms' name. Besides that, why defend a company or a corporation in the first place? It's a damn shame that people are more enervated by corporate strife than by the suffering of our fellow beings.

To be fair, Zoom is the best video conference software I've ever used. It's so much better than Skype or anything created by Google, Facebook, etc. When I first started using it at work 5 years ago, I was blown away at how stable it was, and how many people could connect at the same time. It just worked.

What I dislike about Zoom is that it's a Chinese binary on my computer, something I don't want.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#500

Post by thePunisher »

YarickR2 wrote: post #310
thePunisher wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I keep calling for a NEW Internet to be created based on HORNET technology. HORNET is basically the same as the Tor network, but with speeds similar to the current internet. Sites can't be traced or blocked and neither can its users. There will be free speech, along with all its excesses (terrorism, child porn, illegal content sharing etc.). If everyone migrates towards the HORNET internet authoritarian re…

Well, authoritarian regimes wouldn't be first to shut this down. Western corporations will, because of illegal content sharing, no enforceable DMCA, and all this

It will be technically infeasible to do so. Or do you mean telecoms? That might be possible, but they'll risk losing customers.

IIRC when the internet was young, there were many closed computer networks such as The Source and America Online. These tried to sandbox the internet, but people just fled to providers which would give them unfettered internet access. The same scenario will play out with HORNET.

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