Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#491

Post by boomlinde » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:24 AM UTC

blauditore wrote: post #427

m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to se…

It just strikes me as funny that in response to an argument against trusting large companies with sensitive information you say that "larger groups of people are worse at keeping secrets". I mean, isn't that just corroborating GPs point?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#492

Post by choward » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:26 AM UTC

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #485

choward wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. As a person reading comments it's frustrating that an Apple employee thinks their company is special and should be trusted. It doesn't matter what you say, at the end of the day your goal is t…

Disgusting comment. A person is genuinely invested and passionate about privacy (and we know Apple’s stance on privacy, from Steve Jobs, to their stance with FBI, privacy tsars, keeping data on the phone, Secure Enclave, etc) and you call their work garbage.

> A person is genuinely invested and passionate about privacy...and you call their work garbage.

I'm referring to the output of Google and Apple as garbage. You're the one trying to make this personal. I don't really care that an individual cares about privacy. It has nothing to do with the machine they are a part of.

> and we know Apple’s stance on privacy

No we don't. We don't "know" anything. Are you serious?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#493

Post by GekkePrutser » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:26 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #417

jjgreen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that Palantir is involved, I'd not touch it with a long stick https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-d...

Can anyone point to some articles of how Palantir is ab using data? The reason I ask is, I also thought that it's "just supreme evil" until I listened to a podcast with Thiel (Dave Rubin podcast) recently... In it, he said that he started Palantir as an experiment, what can be done against organised crime/terrorism while respecting civil liberties and privacy. His argument was, that we do need to stop terrorism, beca…

That's called PR and spin.

Having said that I know nothing of Palantir, today was the first time I heard of it.

But I would never ever believe anything a CEO says in the media that can't be validated. Their very job is setting the company in a positive light above all else. Especially when it comes to vague terms about company ideals that can't be proven. And 10 years is an eternity in IT. Remember Google had their motto "Don't be evil". Look how that turned out.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#494

Post by _abox » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:36 AM UTC

taywrobel wrote: post #63

SSLy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll use an analogy: they might not be the warlords, but they are the weapon traffickers.

I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforc…

I don't agree entirely.

Machine Learning/AI adds an entirely new perspective on big data. It can see patterns in data that would be meaningless without it, correlations that can't be found in other ways. Some data is OK for a government to have if they can just look it up in exceptional cases, but not if they act on every single bit of data collected.

In essence, using ML is creating new data (or at least: Information from the raw data). This information can be very revealing and not at all in line with the scope the data was initially collected under, which is one of the principles of GDPR.

You can't really view data as static once it's collected. Combining with other existing data and new methods of data analysis make it a totally different picture in terms of privacy.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#495

Post by choward » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:38 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #431

coliveira wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

> Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. This is why you want an API that never uses any data you don't want anyone else to have. That's what this API is. The "trust" here isn't about whether they'll keep your data safe from third parties including state level actors. Your "trust" only needs to be that the API does what it says on the tin. Which leads to this con…

> then you shouldn't use a phone from Apple or Google

Because you have another choice...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#496

Post by fluffything » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:40 AM UTC

brian-armstrong wrote: post #318

fenomas wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long felt like Apple is uniquely easy to distrust, due to its almost total lack of visible employees. I assume there are actual people working there, but I've never seen one, say, speak (openly) at a meetup or answer a stackoverflow question, or the like. ~Everything I know about Apple either comes from an advertisement or from a guy who talked to a guy who talked to Gruber, and I have a feeling that that makes…

Yep, I think this is quite right. In fact my first thought after seeing this guy self-identify was "welp, that guy's getting fired"

Yep, same thoughts.

Most of the open-source contributors in my projects that get hit by a bus, get hit by an Apple's bus (they start working at Apple, and cannot say anything publicly anymore or contribute to any project).

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#497

Post by GekkePrutser » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:41 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #34

dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...

That's true...

In a way I think this will actually hamper their efforts.

After all: With the corona tracing apps, people are becoming much more aware that their data is used to trace them. A lot of people I know are talking about leaving their phones at home when they go out.

Considering the carriers have had this data forever and are probably sharing it, this awareness is a good thing for privacy.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#498

Post by bregma » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:43 AM UTC

blauditore wrote: post #427

m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to se…

For example, in a huge company lie Boeing it would be impossible to have a coverup of gross violation of the corporate principle of safety first, and as a consequence no one will ever be killed by a 747 Max 8 simply falling out of the sky taking hundreds of lives.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#499

Post by cja » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:43 AM UTC

Contact tracing with location tracking must surely be more effective than contract tracing without location tracking.

I'd quite like my government to decide how contact tracing should work in my country, instead of two companies making that decision. I cannot vote against Apple or Google if I don't like what they do.

Also, I'd like to leave my home without worrying about catching a dangerous and possible fatal disease, and if I have to sacrifice some privacy to do this then that's ok.

Privacy is important, and it's lovely that IT people care so much about it, but all the people on zero-hour contracts and with underlying health conditions would probably rather that we prioritise the most effective approach to eliminating the virus.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#500

Post by dordoka » Tue, May 05, 2020, 11:44 AM UTC

choward wrote: post #469

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

> I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. As a person reading comments it's frustrating that an Apple employee thinks their company is special and should be trusted. It doesn't matter what you say, at the end of the day your goal is t…

To be able to install anything that uses the new contact tracing stuff, you must own a phone that is based either on iOS or Android. I'm honestly curious: if you are using any of those already, is that not even worse than this "garbage" you talk about?