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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#491

Post by baddox »

gamblor956 wrote: post #478
MadWombat wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids True. But now it is a risk to hire people in certain age groups in general. Could this become a "don't hire married people in their late 20s and early 30s" incentive?

"don't hire married people in their late 20s and early 30s" incentive?" --> "Don't hire people during their most economically productive ages." Not an economically viable strategy for any company looking to stay in business more than a year or two.

Surely whether it's "their most economically productive age" would depend heavily on how many children they have and how much parental leave they are allowed.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#492

Post by Lev1a »

codingmess wrote: post #163
michaelt wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hire a replacement on a 14-month contract. If your company can deal with an employee getting hit by a bus / winning the lottery and quitting, then it can deal with an employee taking maternity/paternity leave.

You can't assume nor demand every company can deal with an employee getting hit by a bus. Not every company is a big corporation. Example: our childcare facility employs two people, and replacements are VERY difficult to find at the moment.

Noone is demanding that. If the company can't get it done without the person taking parental leave they simply have to sink or swim.

Like with any other law regulating worker benefits and worker safety. But companies know that starting out and have to plan and act accordingly. That's the cost of doing business.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#493

Post by gvjddbnvdrbv »

lacker wrote: post #465
scrollbar wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to downplay the importance of your fathering and nurturing your child's passions at all- My understanding of the research around personality development is that something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. The early few years are when we get conditioned with the core emotional programming: "I am safe" vs. "I am at risk" - "I am lovable" vs. "I am unlov…

80% of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. There's just a huge difference between a 3-month-old baby, who can't recognize faces yet and spends most of the day sleeping and eating, and a 3-year-old child who is running, jumping, telling stories, making friends, and learning to read. For a 3-month-old baby, I doubt that parents do much more than a random babysitter. For a 3-year-old child, th…

This is really wrong. My baby already recognised and was soothed by my voice and e.g. quieted in my arms much faster than the grandmother's at 2 months.

Research apparently indicates that being loved in your first year is key to your development.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#494

Post by ivanhoe »

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

It might not be significant to a baby, but it surely is significant for the mother (presuming dad helps her, and not just sits around the house), and less stressed-out mothers are in turn good for babies and the family in general.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#495

Post by the_af »

neonate wrote: post #454
the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

> Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The effects of spending 9 months in the body of the mother never go away. No more profound experience is imaginable. Nothing else that happens to a human being will ever come close. So, vitally important as fathers are, the asymmetry is fundamental and permanent. (I'm talking about the typical developmental experience here; I know there ar…

This seems to be equivocating the issue.

Yes, pregnancy is a unique experience. For some women it goes away magically after birth; others have lasting physical and mental changes. Whether this is the most profound experience imaginable in human existence is arguable, though I'm inclined to think it's pretty powerful.

However, the "asymmetry" of pregnancy and child birth is neither fundamental nor permanent for the issue under discussion: sharing the load in child raising more equally, and fathers getting to spend more time with their babies. After breastfeeding is over, fathers are perfectly capable of raising a kid without a mother. It's not magic.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#496

Post by aetimmes »

conanbatt wrote: post #474
aetimmes wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could afford it, absolutely. In reality, my mortgage and other financial commitments would likely have necessitated me going back to work. What we likely would have done instead is staggered my wife's medical leave with a shorter chunk of my own PTO rather than both of us being home at the same time, and put the baby into childcare earlier than we're currently planning on doing.

If you are a bet receiver of funds, who is the net giver?

I don't understand the question. Can you elaborate?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#497

Post by godot »

systemtest wrote: post #461
jredwards wrote: post #312

In the tech worker's paradise that is California, I'm preparing for my generous two weeks of paternity leave. My co-worker, having not been employed at the company for a year yet, is preparing to burn all four days of his vacation time because he's not entitled to paternity leave yet. This is broken.

As a tech worker in California, your income is triple to that of a Finnish tech worker. You can easily take unpaid time off for your paternity leave, perhaps even quit your job for a year, and still get out ahead.

1. Cost of living in the bay area (capital of tech jobs) is a lot higher too. 2. Many companies aren't used to the idea of unpaid time off, and negotiating for one can be difficult. 3. Quitting for a year sounds fine until the end of that year, when the stress of job hunting rises. The interview process for most tech companies, even in 2020, is obnoxious at best, and you could be a rockstar engineer and still have trouble landing a job offer for months if luck is not on your side.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#498

Post by gvjddbnvdrbv »

gylterud wrote: post #109

When we had our first child (in Sweden), we could divide the time (13 months total) freely between the two of us. Then we got some extra money if each of us took more than 30% of that time. I think they stopped with the money bonus, but it was really great for us. We are now having our second child (now in Norway), and while the father quota is great, they now require the mother to be "in activity" (i.e. working) if…

Until very recently unless the mother was working the father got nothing. It only changed because a European Court ruled against the government.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#499

Post by gvjddbnvdrbv »

aantix wrote: post #55
epaga wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's months. Amazing for employees and terrifying for employers. Someone I know took a new job somewhere, only to let them know a week or so after being there that his wife was about to have their child and he was going to be gone for the next 14 months. They were not going to be able to fire him without repercussions. He was not required to let them know during the interview.

How does anything get done? If it were a three person company, one person is now gone for 14 months and legally can’t be replaced? A nightmare for the other two employees.

In Norway you also don't have to pay their salary... Makes hiring a fixed term replacement a little easier and often the replacement turns out to be a good fit and if you want to grow you now have a four person company.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#500

Post by jimmaswell »

blub wrote: post #479
jimmaswell wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/02/06/children-... Breastfeeding is one of many variables and formula has come a long way.

That was not at all as conclusive as I was expecting, for several reasons: * it's study not studies * it refers strictly to educational performance * it's likely detecting something else entirely: "The researchers found that same-sex parents are often wealthier, older and more educated than the typical different-sex couple. Same-sex couples often have to use expensive fertility treatments to have a child, meaning the…

Regarding the third point the conclusion still supports what I said, that there's no big gap.

A basic google query will get a ton of results. Here are a few.

Overview of 75 studies: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equali...

https://thinkprogress.org/same-sex-parenting-study-age-25-67...

https://qz.com/1320434/new-research-debunks-old-science-abou...

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