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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#491

Post by nothis »

fragsworth wrote: post #403
jodrellblank wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it. From the bottom of the article: " I am writing these blog posts to get attention to our newest game, Queen's Wish: The Conqueror. You can also follow me on Twitter. "

Hah! He knows what he's doing better than anyone here thinks. Here we are discussing his ugly cheap art, browsing through his games, at almost no cost to him (writing a blog post?) He must have had at least a few hundred sales today, because I saw this blog post on twitter and reddit as well. That's really quite brilliant.

I can actually appreciate that for cleverness, but it feels a bit dirty. I'm having a few Spiderweb games on my backlog.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#492

Post by Someone »

So, this firm has customers that want better graphics, but they’re not willing to invest in that.

It also seems the games aren’t easily modded (at least, the blog post nor this HN discussion mention it).

I’m sure it won’t be enough for all or even most critics, but that, to me, seems a missed opportunity. Looking at the games, the look of the tiles won’t affect gameplay (as I tight if, for example, the programs do a flood-fill of the map at some time) so it shouldn’t be hard to, at startup, check for the presence of a ‘tiles.png’ or ‘tiles.bmp’ file, and read tiles from it, if present.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#493

Post by 2Xheadpalm »

nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

I love Spiderweb Software and the games they produce but I see what you did their Jeff.

Come on guys this is clearly a precisely crafted, controversial traffic increasing blog (ahem advertisement) piece to stir additional attention for his soon to be released latest game. Plus he gets to rant a bit with IMHO reasonable justifications.

As in it has already created salty posts on the front page of hacker news (+ other news outlets). He is turning what is perceived as many as a weakness of his games into another advantage, bloody brilliant and well done sir! =)

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#494

Post by bsder »

ebg13 wrote: post #141

Oh man. This thread is really something else. Like...for miles in every direction, all I can see are pitchforks, and here I am standing alone on a small hill thinking to myself "Holy shit. That's the Spiderweb software guy. I've played every single one of his games, EVERY SINGLE ONE, and loved all of them." The graphics in the games are exactly as good as they need to be to make wonderful story-driven RPGs.

There are two problems: 1) the poor art actually causes one significant design fault and 2) I think the problem is actually that his art is too good in places.

1) If you look at Avernum 3 and Queen's Wish, the characters you are supposed to control don't "stick out" visually. I must have looked at the Avernum picture half a dozen times and actually missed the 3 other characters in the picture other than the cloak and the dragon. That's a huge mistake in visual design--and that is the fault of the designer not the artist. QW has similar issues in that the character design isn't very distinctive: without those horrible colored circles you can't tell friend from foe. And the visual design of the characters makes distinguishing classes difficult. Again, that's designer failure--not art failure.

2) If you look at QW, there are 4 different levels of art. The bottom icons are gorgeous and would fit in a AAA game. The portraits look like potato cam from 1999. The characters look like bad pseudo 2.5D from 1993. And the background sprites look like they are from "My First RPG Maker". You can choose any of those, be consistent, and people won't feel too bad. Look at Exile and Avernum--they have a consistent art level across everything and don't strike me as ugly. What you cannot do is mix and match the levels--that's very jarring and people will complain.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#495

Post by eropple »

polk wrote: post #480
eropple wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JV spends astonishingly little on art because his games don't make very much . His audience is small (I am part of it) and his audience values that particular kind of game way more than it does art-- and the marginal return from making it look a little better to appeal to a little wider of a crowd is historically negative. He cited as much, and he's talked about his numbers in concrete terms before. Every game you li…

One thing that bothers me in this discussion is the 'business model' justification. >his audience values that particular kind of game way more than it does art Isn't that ridiculously self-selecting? If he's always been making ugly games, then it follows that his current customer base will be limited to people who don't care as much about visuals. This will always be true, regardless of what genre games you're making…

You might disagree--which is fine--but as one of those folks who've steadily paid his mortgage from his games I don't think the art style is ugly. It's functional. It's not particularly good, nor is it distractingly bad. That's clearly enough for the audience that he, with low-risk projects, makes enough money to get by on.

I assume that you have read the article and read how JV has tried spending more money to update his graphics in an effort to expand his customer base, to little effect. And since I assume you must understand that one can evaluate marginal returns based on cost outlay, I would think that this line of thinking should make sense, even if you disagree with it.

I've said it elsewhere in this thread but I'll say it again: the goal when running a small business is not to take over the world. The goal is to not fail. Expending scarce resources on bets with a ROI ratio under one is not a good way to avoid failure.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#496

Post by eropple »

duskwuff wrote: post #482
eridius wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, interesting. I loved the heck out of the Exile games but I was unaware of details like this. I didn't even realize Exile I/II got graphics updates.

Old Exile graphics: http://i10.tinypic.com/2lbkruv.png New Exile graphics: https://lparchive.org/Exile-2-Crystal-Souls/Update%2018/1-01...

I remember a lot more red in Exile I. The caves got more dull and gray in Exile II.

Here's the OG splash screen: http://macintoshgarden.org/games/exile-escape-from-the-pit

And here's the update: http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/s...

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#498

Post by ehsankia »

sprafa wrote: post #469
ehsankia wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, when you write such an abrasive post, literally ending with "haters gonna hate" and basically implying that anyone who doesn't like the art is stupid, I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expect to get.

Don’t know what article you read. He said the art being shit makes business sense to him

I've been reading this article, which one have you been reading?

https://i.imgur.com/rZozQHD.png

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#499

Post by demiskeleton »

nothis wrote: post #490
jimbokun wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the correct response to a question of why they don't make a "better" looking game is that they don't care. Or, maybe, it's a taste issue. No, he plainly states it is a cost issue. He can't afford to hire the people who could create truly "good" art for his games.

Steamspy lists their games as having sold [in the millions]( https://steamspy.com/dev/Spiderweb+Software ). If they wanted to, they absolutely could afford a B+ tier art guy going through the basic steps of making their backgrounds not look like programmer art, for a few months. You can actually see some decent concept art and character design in their current games but they're drowned out by a stubborn refusal to ac…

Using Steamspy to just declare how much money he has made and that it is enough to support his family, continue development and hire someone for more art direction when the entire article is about he doesn't have enough money to hire someone is exactly why he wrote this article.

People keep posting in the thread that games with "bad art" still look good with "good art direction" but art direction also costs money, which he still doesn't have.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#500

Post by duskwuff »

eropple wrote: post #496
duskwuff wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old Exile graphics: http://i10.tinypic.com/2lbkruv.png New Exile graphics: https://lparchive.org/Exile-2-Crystal-Souls/Update%2018/1-01...

I remember a lot more red in Exile I. The caves got more dull and gray in Exile II. Here's the OG splash screen: http://macintoshgarden.org/games/exile-escape-from-the-pit And here's the update: http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/s...

Interesting -- I actually see three different versions of the splash screen at that first link! (One with red text on a gray background and 1.0 graphics, one with blue text on a gray background and 1.0 graphics, and one with gray text on a gray background and 2.0 graphics.) There's also two different 3D-rendered splash screens.
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