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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#491

Post by zmk_ »

filoleg wrote: post #403
Hithredin wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon. And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?

>They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon. Isn't that exactly what VAT tax is for? >And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess? An educated guess that I am strongly confident in, to the point of willing to bet most of my savings on it. And I am not the kind of person who would usually bet any money on anything at all. My most risky money bet so far is putting a portion of…

VAT is a tax on consumption, corporate taxes are on profits (revenues in this case). If Amazon does not have to pay as high corporate taxes due to transfer pricing, then it can offer a lower net (pre-VAT) price so their products end up being cheaper to consumers driving away sales from other retailers. While competition, you may say it is 'unfair' competition.

And yes, this makes it very hard for new businesses to enter the market as they do not have the resources necessary to do tax optimization.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#492

Post by ineedasername »

sverige wrote: post #226
ineedasername wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so any type of tax is justified? That's a straw man. You're leaping from "some type of tax is justified" which is quite a bit more reasonable than "any tax". And if you want to say it's a slippery slope or some such, well, ever single action if extrapolated to the extreme can be a viewed as such. If 3% is reasonable and then it's proposed to goes up and up, fight the increase, not the initial reasonable action. Of c…

All taxes are a slippery slope. Name one that has ever been repealed. Income tax in the U.S. started out as a modest 3% on only the highest incomes and look where that has ended up: full on wealth redistribution. We can argue whether that's a good thing or not, but not whether there's a slippery slope when it comes to implementing a new tax.

The US just repealed and lowered some taxes a year and a half ago. Look back 4 or 5 decades US incomes taxes were way way way higher. You're simply wrong

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#493

Post by GFischer »

DocTomoe wrote: post #466
kemiller wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black markets exist, but they pay a different sort of tax: the muscle and violent losses required to keep their property. Lawful governments do that better, and that’s what taxes pay for. Google and Facebook have access to the legal system in France, not to mention the wires that run the internet itself. You can argue about what the optimal taxation scheme is but arguing that it’s not necessary, or that the internet…

I fail to see the qualitative difference between a) Don Vito sending goons with guns to hurt and/or kill me if I don't pay protection money and b) "The lawful government" sending people with guns to arrest me if I don't pay taxes (and potentially kill me if I should refuse arrest).

It´s basically one of legitimacy, as you point out with "lawful government" (so I guess you disagree).

The police ARE the state goons, so the outcome doesn´t change much .

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#494

Post by effie »

cyrksoft wrote: post #436
effie wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strawman, nobody is arguing for supporting companies at the expense of the rest of society. The parent is arguing for supporting companies for the benefit of the society. Both can happen, it depends on how and to what extent it is executed. Economists disagree a lot and they have only partial say in policies, countries are not run solely by economists.

“For the benefit of the society” How would you measure that? Does paying more for a worse product and raising the price of the better one benefits society? If the product was better it would already be in the market.

Supporting local businesses and local jobs. This may lead to worse or to a better product, it depends on many things. There is no necessity of a catastrophe where the local product is worse and everybody is worse because having to use it. See China.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#495

Post by pas »

charlesdm wrote: post #220
opportune wrote: post #195

Part of me originally wanted the US to retaliate since this theoretically threatens my paycheck, but a 3% tax on revenue generated within the country is pretty low and seems reasonable considering how ineffective taxing profits is due to loopholes. I really don't think it's sour grapes so much as trying to address the Irish/Luxembourgish tax schemes

Correct in theory. But have you looked at french tax policy? The issue with new taxes is that often it starts at 3%, then goes up gradually to 5, then to 7, and before you know it you have a 15% turnover tax. France is a lovely country, but one of the worst players when it comes to tax policy. The never ending appetite to increase the spending of the state does not stop...

And?

The French themselves will protest if they feel the tax is too much (so if they can't get cheap enough iTunes/Spotify/Netflix and their local versions).

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#496

Post by kzrdude »

icebraining wrote: post #67
kzrdude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, won't someone please think of the U.S. software.engineers. And oh no, access to a market also means legal and tax responsibilities?

The HN guidelines ask us not to be snarky.

I appreciate the frank comment. Thanks

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#497

Post by pas »

wazoox wrote: post #113

The US has long been using their legal system to skew free market rules and favour their domestic markets and companies. DoJ is constantly "exporting" US law around the world by methods that border blackmail or even sometimes taking hostages. Fighting back has been long due. Though of course France should begin with EU free-riders, Luxembourg and Ireland...

> DoJ is constantly "exporting" US law [...]

Could you explain what do you mean by this, and provide specific instances?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#498

Post by wazoox »

pas wrote: post #497
wazoox wrote: post #113

The US has long been using their legal system to skew free market rules and favour their domestic markets and companies. DoJ is constantly "exporting" US law around the world by methods that border blackmail or even sometimes taking hostages. Fighting back has been long due. Though of course France should begin with EU free-riders, Luxembourg and Ireland...

> DoJ is constantly "exporting" US law [...] Could you explain what do you mean by this, and provide specific instances?

For instance the 1977 (79?) law against corruption of foreign officials has been in almost all cases involving large companies, only been used against foreign ones, except in once case, Halliburton. In fact in that very case Valourec (French) was working on a common contract with Halliburton and was attacked first, but they negotiated by implicating their partner (both were punished).

Concerning US embargoes, the DoJ has extorted many billion dollars from foreign companies for breaking these. However there was no embargo between, say, Germany and Iran; as some transactions happened to be in USD, DoJ consider that Deutsche Bank, by providing services priced in US$ to Iran, violated the US embargo. Ditto other European banks. This looks like blackmail: US Treasury grabbed more than USD 14 billions from European banks using this tactic. Also the US blocked various arms sales between various countries because the weapons used some US-made parts (typically some electronic chip deep inside), only to keep the deal to themselves.

Basically that means that any company making transactions in US$ must comply to US law, always and everywhere. If my company sold some product to some Russian company with a price in USD, it could be sued by a US prosecutor. Then when visiting a friend in the US, I could be jailed (even if I hadn't no direct relation with the targeted sale, simply as a company board member or manager).

If my product includes any US-made part, my international sales are depending upon US goodwill. Which, in the case of billion-dollars contracts, will probably enter the scene.

Seems preposterous? It actually happened many times. It happened to the VP Asia of Alstom, jailed nearly 4 years in the US to blackmail his company for the sole benefit of General Electric. One of Deutsche Bank VP was extradited from Croatia to the US while on holidays, and jailed in a high security prison like a murderer. Etc.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#499

Post by JetSpiegel »

DocTomoe wrote: post #466
kemiller wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black markets exist, but they pay a different sort of tax: the muscle and violent losses required to keep their property. Lawful governments do that better, and that’s what taxes pay for. Google and Facebook have access to the legal system in France, not to mention the wires that run the internet itself. You can argue about what the optimal taxation scheme is but arguing that it’s not necessary, or that the internet…

I fail to see the qualitative difference between a) Don Vito sending goons with guns to hurt and/or kill me if I don't pay protection money and b) "The lawful government" sending people with guns to arrest me if I don't pay taxes (and potentially kill me if I should refuse arrest).

- You can vote Macron out, but Corleone can only give up power by getting assasinated or dying by natural causes. Either way, this creates massive conflict within the organization, and it probably perishes with the death of the boss. Contrast with Hollande losing the election, Macron assumes power but no civil war has started (maybe a metaphorical one with appointed positions, but without violence (non-verbal at least))

- The French police rarely kills people, and certainly not for not paying taxes. You can argue some tax dodging is under-prosecuted.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#500

Post by JetSpiegel »

leppr wrote: post #405
smolder wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe taxes give me more control. What I believe is that taxes aren't inherently bad and that we should express more concern over where the money goes and what economic effects it has, not paint all taxation as bad. Effective democracies do have an explicit mechanism to make government accountable: votes on issues (like where taxes are gathered and how they're spent) and representation. Through an effective…

There's very little democracy in France as well. Corporate lobbying might not be as prevalent (simply because they don't have as many humongous corporations), but it's still the same old self-serving oligarchy story. If we really want to compare, American-style plutocracy might actually be more democratic, because it's easier for a diverse array of citizen to become rich, than it is for French citizens to join the el…

America legalized corruption (Citizens United), so I fail to see how is this more democratic.
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