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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#491

Post by nova22033 »

munificent wrote: post #179
raiyu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless at least this we can continue to make NYC a powerhouse tech center. And it's in Long island City not in Manhattan like Facebook and Google.

> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless I just don't understand this argument. It's like "Someone's gonna get fucked, so I'd prefer it be me." That tax break is real money . Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, all the things that make a place worth living in. Why would you hand that over to a company that doesn't need it?

>That tax break is real money. Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks,

You run a store. You put up a sign offering a 50% discount. I walk in the store and you tell me there is no discount. I walk out. Guess what? You didn't get any money and I didn't get anything out of the deal.

Amazon backing out of HQ2 doesn't mean you get to keep the money. You never had the money.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#492

Post by lsllc »

cletus wrote: post #330

So this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were always going to go. The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any sense of the word. It's just an expansion. Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? There's a difference. I don'…

  "For example, a $3m brownstone in Park Slope I saw had ~$700/month in property taxes"
Surely that's a typo. At a tax rate of $10 per $1000, that would to be $2500/month.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#493

Post by tmaly »

thomasmeeks wrote: post #347
tmaly wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as a thought experiment, say they did create 25,000 jobs at an average salary of 100,000. What type of taxes and secondary effects on the economy does this have? Does the city get back more than the 3 billion in concessions and how long does that take?

Looking at it from a strictly "benefit to government's tax coffers" standpoint (since that's the argument for the tax breaks): Would those new Amazon jobs cause 25k people to move to NYC? Or is it more likely to just make the local market more competitive? How would other businesses react? Would they move? Embrace remote? If they increase salary across the board and live with unfilled positions, how does that affect…

Would the net effect be to increase demand for those skill sets and by extension increase salaries?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#494

Post by koheripbal »

driverdan wrote: post #471
zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

> Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Was it highly subsidized by taxpayers like Amazon's purchase would have been?

Tax breaks are just a temporary discount on taxes that otherwise would be paid at all.

It's not like Amazon was getting CASH to move to NYC.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#495

Post by ProfessorLayton »

jemfinch wrote: post #456
munificent wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless I just don't understand this argument. It's like "Someone's gonna get fucked, so I'd prefer it be me." That tax break is real money . Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, all the things that make a place worth living in. Why would you hand that over to a company that doesn't need it?

> That tax break is real money . Sure, but it's real money that your community doesn't get either way . You're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the choice was legitimately between "Tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and 25,000 jobs." No, the choice has always been between "No tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and no jobs." You're not getting the tax money either way. Either Amazon buil…

I disagree. Amazon does not have as many choices as it would seem from the outset. Perhaps NYC is no longer going to get an HQ2 with 25k jobs, but Amazon will be expanding there regardless of subsidies.

The talent required is not evenly spread throughout the cities that bid on HQ2, and a world-class city like NYC does not need Amazon as much as Amazon needs them.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#496

Post by asavadatti »

ahoy wrote: post #197
nerdb4itwascool wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agreed. the drive to squash this deal was mainly driven from local politicians who were whining that they were cut out of the process.

> Is this 4chan now? It's good when local politicians weigh in on local issues. Your comment is completely off the mark.

Take it easy Captain. That word is part of common parlance

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#497

Post by skiw »

Question: What does everybody think this might mean for the Crystal City VA area (i.e. the DMV)? The article said they plan to continue on as planned.

Does anybody think that Amazon pulling out of NYC will make their impact on the DMV greater or would it probably be the same as if they had HQ2's both places?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#498

Post by asdff »

supermw wrote: post #379
specialp wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The 25k number was just to make a splash and notice they aren't doing that again. Because there aren't really any other areas that could give them 25k skilled employees. They will scale up in Nashville which is expected since it is a growing area, and they will still be in NY due to the talent. The "HQ2" show was primarily to extract large concessions which almost worked. My initial reaction as a NY'er was "…

What if another state gave the concessions, and then it worked out spectacularly for them, completely reviving a city and building up a new ecosystem that funnels in new wealth and new money. Would NY be kicking itself then?

Take Columbus, one of the other contenders for Amazon's bachelor-like charade, with 850,000 people living there. 25k jobs would have been a bigger deal. If you compare 25k jobs to NYC's population of over 8 million, it would be proportional to adding ~2.5k jobs to Columbus, not all of which are tech workers making 6 figures. It's a drop in the bucket for NYC, especially considering Amazon already has thousands of workers in NY and will likely reach that 25k figure in time without needing billions in concessions.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#499

Post by kansface »

dralley wrote: post #115
jdhn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting downvoted, but it's true. If I recall, the city/state would've broken even not that far into the future, and then everything after that would've been pure profit for them.

It's a matter of principle. NYC (or any municipality) shouldn't be bending over for massive multinationals. It's a form of corruption, one that's depressingly widespread, and it's a race to the bottom that, from a 30,000 foot view, accomplishes nothing but screwing over the taxpayers and smaller competitors lacking the leverage for these antics, and benefiting the corporations that are already enormous and powerful.

This is not a zero sum game.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#500

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

bduerst wrote: post #393
CydeWeys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because then it's a race to the bottom and all other companies start expecting these same deals (or even better), and eventually you do end up with a situation where the city does not get back more in tax revenue. It's simple negotiation; you may lose some money on that one deal, but you'll gain more in the end by not decreasing the value of all subsequent deals.

^ For anyone doubting this, Planet Money did an excellent podcast on how this phenomenon played out in Kansas City with corporations like Applebee's, and cost the city millions: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/11/16/668769284/epis...

You could easily argue it put Kansas City on the map.

Kansas City is at least a well known name in the tech world now, when there's plenty of other midwest cities of similar size that rarely get brought up.

Millions would be a steal for the revenue becoming a tech hub would bring in. Even if it does take a more than a decade to be realized.

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