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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#491

Post by zeckalpha »

seem_2211 wrote: post #83
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

It's not that simple though - if you read the article it talks about how 1: High paying jobs aren't really increasing in number but are becoming ever better paid and 2: Low paying jobs are exploding in number but not in wages paid. So part of the problem is that there aren't many mid level jobs that get people in and help them then increase. Tech doesn't really automate the stuff that's not super low level (like clea…

How do we incentivize atuomation at the extreme ends?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#492

Post by zeckalpha »

dnbgfher wrote: post #78
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

I don't see how this tracks. Particularly in relation to many of the jobs going away, productivity isn't inversely related to hours worked. People working 6 hours instead of 8 will get three quarters as much done. How would their wages go up? If you are proposing the government cover the difference, then you're effectively proposing a bastardized version of UBI with an employment requirement, and payout that is propo…

People working 6 hours will get slightly more than three quarters done. People lose steam through the day.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#493

Post by zeckalpha »

Domenic_S wrote: post #95
aphextron wrote: post #76

It is splitting our entire society in two. There are people who work in the old economy, actually doing things in the world. These people are still "tied to the land" in a sense. Their income isn't high enough to live alone, so they still maintain strong familial and neighborly bonds. Their work is physical (that doesn't mean unskilled or low paid, just that it requires physical manipulation), and requires them to ph…

I've been in tech my whole professional life and I can't relate to the second class at all. The technologically enabled upper middle class are fighting over Yeezys, Supreme drops, and Rolexes (seriously, try to find any of those at retail price). My neighborhood is filled with WFH techies, and we all head outside in the evening for our kids to ride bikes with each other while we sample microbrews together. Those truc…

Electricians and plumbers are STEM tech jobs, just with a different path to entry and a social stigma.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#494

Post by nybble41 »

magduf wrote: post #425
athenot wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make Americans care very much about education but the system we're in doesn't. Kids have no value in a market economy until they have purchase power (or influence on purchase power). In a highly inequal society that means very fancy private schools, for those who can pay. And neglected public schools for the rest. The outlook of…

>Americans care very much about education but the system we're in doesn't. This is demonstrably false. If Americans cared about education, they would demand their local governments do a better job of providing it. But they don't. Those governments pay teachers poorly, which doesn't attract quality people to the profession, and the taxpayers just complain about their taxes being too high.

The ones who care about their kids' education enough to pay for it themselves—not just lobby to make others pay for it—and have the resources to do something about it tend to put their kids in private schools. That leaves only those who either lack sufficient resources to pay more or simply don't care.

In any case, we actually spend quite a bit on education, despite arguably worse outcomes than some other countries that spend less. Throwing more money at the problem isn't going to improve anything. The focus needs to be on spending the significant resources already allocated to education more effectively.

The attempts to equalize outcomes regardless of the amount of effort students (and parents) put into their education certainly don't help. Assuming they get their way and everyone is assured of equal pay for equal "effort"—why bother studying if cashiering at a fast-food joint offers about the same quality-of-life as managing a successful company, or performing leading-edge research and development?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#495

Post by darawk »

mpweiher wrote: post #132
darawk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China.

Wow. That's another bold claim as support for the the thesis that STEM is "natural" for kids. Remember: natural First, China in general is not a free society, the state enforces what it wants its citizens to do, sometimes quite brutally. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China "Xi Jinping wields a level of social control not seen since Mao, posing a…

Who said anything about anything being 'natural'?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#496

Post by [deleted] »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #248
CalRobert wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

> protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). I've worked at two places who had this policy and it was remarkable how many people just burned themselves out by NOT taking a single day of vacation. There was always pressure from management to NOT take vacation, then you add in pressure from your co-workers to continually work late, push to get projects done on time, all at the cost of…

[deleted]

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#497

Post by nybble41 »

kamarg wrote: post #321
anonuser123456 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally gave an example for why free-market capitalism supports innovation; e.g. the product was stupid and the market rejected it.

The market rejecting a product has nothing to do with innovation. It's people saying I can't afford this or I don't value this at the price you're selling it at, or even I don't like the politics of someone that works for you. But it says nothing about if a product is innovative or not.

Innovation includes factors like actually being able to manufacture the product at a price people are willing to pay. If something is worth at most $10, coming up with a novel way to do it for less than $10 is innovative; coming up with a way to do it for $1000 is just wasting time.

It's easy to come up with crazy, impractical ideas. The essence of innovation is turning those ideas into sustainable, marketable, and thus profitable products.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#498

Post by SovietDissident »

How many years do people spend in Prussian-model government schools or private schools with mandated State-sponsored curriculum? 12? And the average person isn't imparted enough skills to work on anything besides a precarious assembly-line or perpetual min-wage job?

The story here is not an indictment of robots taking menial jobs; rather, it is an indictment of the atrocious education system that teaches people NOTHING of value. Maybe even less than nothing, since it propagandizes and infantilizes them.

If Walmart ran the schools and produced a bunch of know-nothings as a result, we would never hear the end of it. But somehow the State gets a pass. Even worse; they get more money!---per capital spending has increased 3x in the last 60 years with worse results.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#499

Post by [deleted] »

moorhosj wrote: post #428
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US white, non-Hispanic population: 61.3%.... Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+

==Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+== Not only is this contention wrong [1], it is completely arbitrary. Ethnicity isn't just how you want to draw lines to prove some point. Sweden has multiple ethnicities within what you call "Swedish white, non-Hispanic". This is observed, most obviously, through different dialects and cultures. Swedes that border Norway are different than Swedes that border Finla…

[deleted]

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#500

Post by [deleted] »

svantana wrote: post #247
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from…

[deleted]
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