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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#491

> 1. The job search takes much, much longer than it used to. This is so true (also in Bay Area). I am still in the process of job hunting. The first onsite was in mid March. I thought my last onsite would be last Friday, but no, a few more are still being scheduled (I probably have to withdraw some applications). Also the negotiation with HR easily takes weeks. Despite I have offers from some companies, I just couldn…

> This is so true (also in Bay Area). I am still in the process of job hunting. The first onsite was in mid March. I thought my last onsite would be last Friday, but no, a few more are still being scheduled (I probably have to withdraw some applications).

My first job in the Bay Area in 2007 consisted of a single 3 hour in person interview. That's it. I got a phone call telling me the good news on my train ride back to SF. It was my 5th interview and they all consisted of pretty much the same protocol. And yet, some of the top comments on this post say that hiring hasn't changed all that much. o_O

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a myth, what do you estimate the figure is? I think under 10%, maybe under 5%. I have significant experience interviewing senior, junior, and mid-range candidates. 99% of my candidates can code, as in iterate over collections, write case statements, and call functions. I've only had one junior candidate who couldn't code at all. Sloppiness is rampant, but sloppy code that gets things done is what…

We set our in-house recruiter up with a coderpad question that screens candidates with a simple question: "Write a function that counts the number of vowels in a string" Candidates are allowed to run it multiple times and just have to produce a correct result within 10 minutes. It's not a trick question -- the test case in place makes sure you pay attention to case. Success rate for mid to senior devs? Only 60%.

Screw it, everyone else is posting code examples:

    def vc(s):
        return len([c for c in s if c in ['a','e','i','o','u']])

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#493
post #31

Thank you for writing this post. It was informative. A few comments from a fellow software developer who is approaching 50... I don't think the coding test isn't there because people think you're lying, it's there because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam. Actuarial interviews don't (to my knowledge) contain a whiteboard vector calculus exam, but this isn't because people just sort of believe actuarie…

> ... because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam. This. In fact there needs to be one exam, with subsections and subscores per subsection, along with an overall score. Being able to solve an algorithmic challenge on a whiteboard does not mean that you can: a) write readable and maintainable code b) effectively communicate requirements to whoever is actually running your code in production c) know about…

How would you test, "in a certifiable way", just the first of your examples "write readable and maintainable code"?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#494

Wow, I recently went through this experience and totally agree with all of the points. My only addition would be to ask someone on the inside for feedback, if at all possible. That was the only way I was able to get any tips that helped me improve. Also, I interviewed with a company called Jumpcloud in Boulder. The interview process itself left some things to be desired but I'm writing to give them a huge shout out t…

+1 on feedback.

Last time I was interviewing, the first place I interviewed was at a company where I knew the director of engineering from a previous role. I went there to have an informal talk with him and some devs. Later when I sent my resume I was rejected right away. Luckily for me he told me that I came across like a know-it-all crappy dev. He told me why I came across like that and I realized that he was right. It probably saved me a ton of grief in later interviews because I knew what things I needed to do and not do.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#495
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? For any algorithmic question, if googling does not turn up a great answer, you would need to be a genius if you could come up with one on the spot.

We had a CS class at UNH, a state university, where we learned how to express the complexity of an algorithm and then how to refactor algorithms to be less complex, when possible. Although we do not do this type of work for most of our jobs, it is not a stretch to think that half of people with a CS degree might have at one point known how to do this on the spot.

Yes, that’s exactly the kind of thing companies like Google are looking for.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#496

To take a more nuanced view, I think there is an important distinction, frequently lost, between "can't code" -- which is all too common in practice -- and "can't easily code a stream-of-consciousness solution to a synthetic problem unrelated to anything I've ever built". Or its close cousin "can't easily code a toy solution to your toy problem since I've only worked on massively scalable versions of the same problem…

Most engineers would not hire themselves. That has been apparent to me for awhile now. I’m not sure why they expect people to be to be better than they were when they were hired. I don’t expect engineers to be better than me. I have but one qualification. Can they do the job? Are they strong enough that I can guide them into the position I need them at if it is required. So much focus has been put on 10x this and hig…

>I don’t expect engineers to be better than me.

I respect your opinion but I find this strategy very strange. (Or maybe I don't exactly understand what you're saying.)

In my view, it would be a dream scenario if the next 10 programmers I hire were all superior to me. If I was the worst programmer on the team, that would be an ideal outcome. Yes, I've been programming for 30+ years but I'm also self-aware of my limitations. This gives me the ability to recognize better programmers and learn from them. If I'm not hiring interns, I do expect (or at least hope) that they are better than me.

Am I competent enough to write a "do/while" loop and knock out FizzBuzz in 5 minutes?!? Sure, but that doesn't mean there aren't better programmers than me. I would consider it a great business skill if I'm able to consistently attract superior programmers -- either to work with me or for me.

Larry Page attracted programmers better than him (e.g. Jeff Dean). Yes, Larry earned a masters degree in computer science but his java programming (the rudimentary 1996 crawler) wasn't considered very good. His employees rewrote the whole thing in C++ and made it scale for billions of pages. Bill Gates hired superior programmers. Mark Zuckerberg hired superior programmers. Etc. etc.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#498
I took a look at the list and I have to say the job outlooks must vary considerably by primary skill. I would say that if, in the current market, finding a senior development job is a challenge you are doing something horribly wrong.

In my case I am a senior JavaScript developer who doesn't like the straightjacket stupidity that is popular large monolithic frameworks. The demand for this skill is stupid ridiculous. If you want a new job simply put your resume online in one of those job boards like CareerBuilder or Monster. Within 2 weeks the recruiters will discover it and I expect to get 6-8 responses eagerly pushing me into interviews once my availability is "discovered". After those initial responses I might get another 10 or so serious asks for my time.

Most people who do web work, in my experience, actually cannot code. If you are a strong coder the interviews are largely a meet and greet, because you probably have a strong answer for everything in your comfort zone and immediately shut down questions about areas where you are weak.

You have to consider that web jobs are generally considered low barrier to entry and so half the people that apply are grossly under-qualified and many that are qualified are just learning to code and incredibly far away from "senior" level. As a senior, an actual senior, expect to enter the job jumping potholes and dodging landmines from the incompetent code already in place. This doesn't mean that I think highly of myself, but rather many companies don't know how to develop or hire strong web developers yet, in the meantime, they still expect work to get done somehow like a mistake mosaic.

As far as salary goes I have generally made more time I have gone somewhere else. Because the demand for senior web developers is ridiculous stupid many employers suspect if you are interviewing with them then you are probably actively interviewing with 3 or 4 other prospective employers, and so if they believe you are a competent senior there is a rushed hurry to get a hiring decision back to you as soon as possibly, often in the same day you interviewed. With that rush comes high salary offerings, which I guess is an effort to outbid the suspected competition.

If you are interviewing in the corporate world and actually are at the senior level age is irrelevant and the preference skews a bit older. Nobody is going to believe you are actually an awesome senior developer if you are under 24 years old unless you are a brilliant child prodigy who has been inventing new software techniques for the last 8 years. I am on my way out of my thirties and my age has not hindered any demand for me.

As far as interviews go what has done me well is honesty. This means telling prospective employers things that might make them throw up in their mouths. I don't like large blunted frameworks and so I prefer to get much of the nonsense out of the way early on. If the disdain for the safety scissors is a deal breaker then don't waste my time and I won't waste yours. Since the demand for seniors is ridiculously stupid I am fortunate to be less afraid of being so blunt and immediately honest.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 99% of my candidates can code, as in iterate over collections, write case statements, and call functions. Honestly, that's way too trivial to call "can code". I usually ask something less trivial, yet still extremely easy like "a function to check if a string is a palindrome" (I explain what a palindrome is) or "check if a substring exists in a given string". You wouldn't believe how many people "with 10 years expe…

Do you get a IDE with compiler for the palindrom question? Id say that close to 0 out off 10 engineers at work including me would get a working program without debugger or print statements. Just tried in c and got me 2 compiles to get it right. Without the output I would just present a nonworking program.

Maybe it's just me, but needing an entire IDE or a debugger to write a function that checks if a string is the same backwards seems entirely too much to me. It's a pen&paper question really.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't like take-home assignments. It's a one-sided time investment. If I'm asked to do one I say that I'm only prepared to put in 45 minutes on it. Now that I've done this a few times and subsequently been rejected after submitting, I'm leaning towards rejecting assignments altogether. It doesn't really serve me well in job searching but I feel strongly about it. It's a bad investment on my time and the assi…

Take-home assignments are a great way to filter out women, the sick, and the poor, but make it look totally above board. "The IT industry is committed to increasing the number of women engineers. But if they're too busy caring for their children to spend six hours doing our silly test, that's their fault for being women. We are forced to hire 20-something white males who have nothing better to do with their time."

> Take-home assignments are a great way to filter out women, the sick, and the poor, but make it look totally above board.

I hope your not impugning the motives of those who issue take-home assignments. Existing practices for hiring are objectively bad at selecting qualified candidates, and most people are just trying to do better. There is some evidence that take-home assignments are an improvement above the norm.

Also, consider that such assignments can serve as a "blind-audition" and can help eliminate bias from the interviewing process. And there are lots of ways in which loading everything into the interview unfairly penalizes certain types of otherwise qualified candidates. What's left, referrals? That's definitely biased, even if it also tends to have a lower false positive rate.

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