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YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

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Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#491
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country where it is quite unusual for someone to own a gun, but I can appreciate that YouTube how-tos are a great educational tool in the situation you describe. From YouTube's message though, it seemed that they were only cracking down on how-tos pertaining to specific things like magazine size or automatic fire. Would that pertain to the 100+ year old rifle and general gun maintenance/malfunctions?

I'm not too upset about them getting rid of videos on how to do things like full auto conversions [0](although I'm curious how they'll handle videos of bump firing that don't incorporate accessories like bump stocks). The language of the ban is vague enough that it could cover nearly all videos of firearms accessories. Right now, manufacturers often put videos up on YouTube of how to install parts they sell. Like wit…

In principle, I think it would be reasonable if the ban essentially applied to conversions/repairs that normally would not legally be allowed to be done by people without a licence, since that should be the best proxy to social consensus on the limit of free speech.

However, this is presuming that the laws regarding that are reasonable and not too lax, which as I understand they aren't (yet).

In the same vein, I think YouTube should take down a lot of life-threatening "life-hack" videos. Wilfully misguiding the public into soldering wires together unsafely, and in all likelihood get yourself killed or start a fire when one plugs in the resulting mess should be illegal IMO, akin to some kind of manslaughter.

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#493
post #459

It's absolutely stunning what's happened to Reddit. Between the speech clampdowns like this and the soul-crushing amount of political astroturfing going on it's clearly time for a new challenger (not Voat).

What's wrong with voat besides that it's a cesspool? It seems like it has all the technical features that make Reddit work, and the lack of moderation that makes it so disgusting is the result of not having speech clampdowns.

> What's wrong with voat besides that it's a cesspool?

That. Past a certain point, the (not really/apocryphal) Voltaire "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" argument results in really, really nasty communities for out-group people to inhabit.

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They occur, but far less frequently.

That is correct but the parent claimed they did not occur at all, which is false.

>>the parent claimed they did not occur at all

I read the parent comment again and I don't see the phrase "at all" in there, so the clear implication (at least to me) is that they meant mass murders by gun happen far less often.

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#495
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not censorship, it's moderating your platform. This is doublespeak. >censorship: the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security. "Doublespeak is a language that deliberately obscures, disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms, in which case it is primar…

The word censor comes from a Latin word for a government official who, well, censored things. In English the word has the implication of being action taken by someone who actually has the power to make moral decisions on behalf of society, such as a government. Maybe you think the word has a different meaning, or maybe you think Youtube has this power, but you should try to disagree without accusing people of being p…

>The word censor comes from a Latin word for a government official who, well, censored things.

Do you have a source for this? The latin word censere does not seem to be defined only as government officials silencing opinions they don't like:

>Definitions:assess, count/reckon, decree, vote, determine, recommend think/suppose,judge

http://latin-dictionary.net/definition/8896/censeo-censere-c...

>Maybe you think the word has a different meaning

It was simias who thinks the word has a different meaning, which is why I cited the dictionary. Do you think the dictionary is wrong?

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#496

The more social media applies arbitrary rules to speech, the more likely they are to be regulated as common carriers. This puts a lot of restrictions and “the Internet” was against it. But these items are not illegal speech (although sometimes). These are private orgs and can legally ban whatever they want. However, phone companies are private too, but they have regulation controlling what is and is not allowed. The…

Ripping dvds isn't affirmed by the constitution as an unaliable right either.

Neither are instructions for making grandma's famous chocolate chip cookies.

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#497
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web still exists very much as it was. You could set up your own site and host any kind of weapons content you wanted assuming it fits with your local legislation. YouTube has no obligation to host your content. It's annoying that the best/most popular/easiest to use video service won't support you/these weapons channels but I don't think it really impacts on _free speech_. Plus, isn't the free speech crowd usuall…

> The web still exists very much as it was. As a collection of standards, yes. However, trying to find a host for the content that is perceived to be wrong or questionable by the mainstream is now much more difficult. The submission is a case in point. youtube bans gun-related videos not because it is directly bad for their business (on the contrary -- it seems to have an active following), but because lawmakers and…

"Free speech means arguing against messages one disagrees with, or ignoring them, but not trying to suppress them."

Agreed, but "I won't provide a platform for this speech" is not "suppressing". If I put up a bulletin board in my front yard and encourage my neighbors to post things there, in general it's eminently reasonable for me to decide that certain things can't be posted - even if my bulletin board becomes the most popular one in town.

(But if it's made "the official town news source" and local government makes certain posting certain things illegal, that's an entirely different kettle of fish.)

Tangentially, there's a 4th option you don't mention for messages one disagrees with - censuring them. (As in "actively and visibly disapproving" - not "censoring"!) For some types of message, the most appropriate response is a firm, unmistakable "That isn't welcome here" / "That's a terrible thing to say" followed by no discussion whatsoever. (Eg: when arguing lends a platform / legitimacy, but ignoring implies acquiescence.)

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#498

The more social media applies arbitrary rules to speech, the more likely they are to be regulated as common carriers. This puts a lot of restrictions and “the Internet” was against it. But these items are not illegal speech (although sometimes). These are private orgs and can legally ban whatever they want. However, phone companies are private too, but they have regulation controlling what is and is not allowed. The…

[deleted]

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#499
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third reich army was trained. It was army. This is not an example of "untrained populace". This is example of well trained army from country with great military tradition. The fight against nazi was ultimately won by armies, not by "untrained populace". All in all, this is really odd example.

> Third reich army was trained. It was army. This is not an example of "untrained populace". Yep. That is my point. > The fight against nazi was ultimately won by armies, not by "untrained populace". Also true. But local groups (and of course SOE operations) helped tying up their resources so they couldn't help on the eastern front or start the invasion of Britain. From Wikipedia[0]: The following afternoon, on 8 May…

I don't really find this convincing as far as original discussion goes.

Re: YouTube and Reddit roll out new restrictions including channel and sub bans

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: The fact that I actually support the second amendment seems to be lost on some readers who didn't take the time to read a nuanced opinion. :) Okay, I don't support the restrictions YouTube and Reddit are putting on free speech, but I think we need to keep things rational here: > We need guns. Legally, in the U.S. it's our right - one of the first and most protected rights. The ability to defend yourself and cou…

> Guns as they are allowed now don't allow you to protect yourself from tyranny. Look at the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Whether or not you believe they had illegal guns, they had guns, and they died. Guns lose to tanks every time. When the second amendment was drafted, guns made sense as a way to defend your rights from the government, but in the modern day, it's been probably half a century since civilians los…

Ultimately I think we agree more than we disagree; I'm mainly arguing that the importance of guns in opposing tyranny exists but is significantly overstated.

> Look at how effective—or ineffective—powerful western armies were fighting comparatively poorly armed Afghan and Iraqi rebels. For the most part, these were people with relatively little training and practice, small arms, and loose organization and yet they've managed styme the west's greatest powers for nearly 2 decades. They're better armed than your typical dooms-day prepper, but not by much (and those same doomsday people argue they should be able to horde mortars and RPGs if they want to). If we took the most extreme 'weapons-rights' view I think it is reasonable to think a few million angry Americans could oppose a president like Trump ordering the US military to enforce some sort of tyranny. We've seen that kind of thing have great effect in recent history and all the way back to the first and second world wars where armed citizens were able to take bake their cities (Warsaw) and mobilize into effective resistance movements.

A few things about this:

1. It's worth noting that every single one of the guns being used by the resistance in Iraq is illegal. If anything, this isn't an argument that gun rights are important, it's an argument that gun laws are irrelevant.

2. It's also worth noting that your best examples here had fairly limited success. The "tyrants" in Iraq have control of the economic resources of the country, which is arguably their goal.

3. I'd argue that the limited successes of using guns to resist tyrants were due to a group united around a shared cause, not guns. Each of the successes of guns you mentioned could be attributed to this. The most effective resistance during WW2 wasn't even gun-related: it was the vast underground that smuggled soldiers and Jews.

> Can you imagine the Khmer Rouge making much progress in Texas or Arizona?

I get your general point, but this is a bad example: the Khmer Rouge was a fairly populist movement. Pol Pot's army was mostly uneducated monarchist peasants who didn't understand communism. A populist leader leading a bunch of people in Texas or Arizona to commit genocide is totally imaginable. But in that case the people with the guns doing the tyranny so I get that this isn't your intent. :)

> Some people don't think that's okay: they see the cost of policing in America, where police (rightly?) assume everyone is armed and angry and the police are quick to violence and say "there is nothing worth this!" There are people who will point at the rates of violent crime and say "even if a gun ban won't help, it certainly can't hurt." and they'll hear stories of children killing themselves or their parents 'accidentally' and say "even so-called responsible gun owners can't be trusted not to put themselves and others in danger through negligence."

> I understand those positions, I'm even sympathetic to them. At the same time, I don't think it's too much to ask that those of us who think that maybe the American relationship with firearms could use some changes at least try to consider the arguments, rather than trotting out some "lone man with AR-15 destroys US Navy thereby defending freedom of everyone from Trump's goon army" fantasy to poke fun at.

In fairness, that fantasy isn't a straw man: there are plenty of people who totally believe that.

That said, I do have a nuanced opinion on this. My ultimate position is that taking someone's gun and jailing them when they have never killed anyone with it is equivalent to convicting them of a crime because they might commit it--government needs very good reason to restrict the rights of individuals, in my opinion. But I also don't think that infringing the right to gun ownership is as damaging to society as infringing the right to, say, free speech, or privacy: plenty of people worldwide live quite happily without gun rights. I am sympathetic to the gun nuts, it's just not an important enough issue to me to affect how I'd vote in most cases.

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