How did this article end up at the top of HN with so many points? It is a misinformed troll.
It’s time to kill the web app
491–500 of 717 posts
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
The security aspect was an interesting part of this piece, because one of the main reasons webapps took over from Windows apps is because they were perceived as more secure. I could disable ActiveX and Java and be reasonably confident that visiting a webpage would not pwn my computer, which I certainly couldn't do when downloading software from the Internet. And then a major reason mobile apps took over from webapps…
> A programmer thinks of all the ways that a program could fuck up your computer; it's a large part of our job description. The average person is terrible at envisioning things that don't exist or contemplating the consequences of hypotheticals that haven't happened. I'm not sure programmers are much better. There's a long history of security vulnerabilities being reinvented over and over. Like CSRF is simply an inst…
> And blaming this on the market is a cheap attempt to dodge responsibility.
How many hacks, data breaches, and privacy violations does it take for consumers to start giving a shit?
Also, any programmer will tell you that just because an issue is tagged "security" doesn't mean it will make it into the sprint. Programmers rarely get to set priorities.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#493Earlier quoted context omitted.
In theory indeed. In practice there's 3 vendors and the standard defining organisation represents commercial interests in the platform, not you.
3 vendors is still better than one.
Name one other platform/deploy target that is as centralised on the vendor side, even though everyone calls it "open"
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#494Earlier quoted context omitted.
The security aspect was an interesting part of this piece, because one of the main reasons webapps took over from Windows apps is because they were perceived as more secure. I could disable ActiveX and Java and be reasonably confident that visiting a webpage would not pwn my computer, which I certainly couldn't do when downloading software from the Internet. And then a major reason mobile apps took over from webapps…
i disagree with one premise...web apps werent ever seen as a more secure alternative to windows apps. they were seen as easier to deploy. that was netscapes big threat to MS. You could deploy an app to a large audience easily. its hard to get across how hard things were back in the day. citrix came out as an option as well...same deal. easier to deploy. people really thought activex was brilliant...until security bec…
I agree. Web apps were easier to deploy, centrally manage and deliver over desktop, assuming you had a stable connection. In fact it was often hard to get people to run apps on the web because internet was wither slow or ADSL was unstable. SaaS was considered risky.
The true definition of a full stack developer in those days would make today's definition of full stack faint.
You had to know how to setup hardware with an os with your software and databases, often having to run your gear in a datacentre yourself that you had to figure out your own redundancy for, all for the opportunity to code something to try out. Being equally competent in hardware, networking, administration, scaling and developing a web app was kind of fun. Now those jobs are cut into many jobs.
Activex was what flash tried to be.. The promise of Java of using one codebase everywhere.
Seeing webassembly is exciting.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#495I'm working on one possible solution for application developers who don't really have much experience working with the complicated pipelines involved in building modern web applications.
It also makes it easier to support users without javascript enabled.
I'm calling it a Web Application Scripting Language, basically it's a template language to build interactive client-side applications that can also be rendered server-side (with actual data) without a javascript interpreter on the server.
I just pushed an updated documentation site which includes a mostly-functional TodoMVC demo.
https://tmzt.github.io/isymtope/
The scripting language aspect of it is similar in some ways to elm, but does not expect a developer to be familiar with topics such as type theory and monads.
This version uses Redux and IncrementalDOM, but the actual functionality it's using in those libraries could easily be replaced with something smaller and more focused on the rehydrated HTML use case.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#496Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep, also on speed: it seems to me that the microsoft office suite for instance slows down every generation despite only having minor improvements and not actually being that different now than from 95. The nature of developers is that they will use whatever resources that they have. Faster computers don't necessarily mean faster applications but faster software development cycles from bigger teams with less need for…
> "the microsoft office suite for instance slows down every generation despite only having minor improvements and not actually being that different now than from 95" I can't comment on most of the Office suite, but Excel evolved quite a bit since 95. Tables, PowerBI, Apps for Office, etc... If your needs are basic enough then even VisiCalc will do the job, but new features do make an impact for more demanding users.
Excel hasn't evolved at all since 2003. They added a couple new chart types and changed some colors. But functionally they haven't made any significant change. In fact some grey controls have litterally not been updated in 20 years (try clicking the fx button near the formula bar with the same broken search feature since the 90s).
There are lots of things they could do. Linking data between spreadsheets or between excel and powerpoint sucks (a significant part of the user base needs to prepare decks and reports that contain lots of charts and numeric tables).
They could learn from Apple's approach with numbers where a worksheet is a canvas on which you can place multiple tables or charts or diagrams, which makes a lot more sense than the single grid per worksheet approach (think having to display two tables one above the other, you are forced to align columns of different widths, and how does the top table overflow?).
Users who need to script or create UDF are stuck with a VB6 editor that hasn't seen any update in 20y and an antiquated language.
I could continue the list for a while. These are basic core features. There might be 1000 people in the world who use power BI, and only because their IT dept set it up for them. But millions of users who's life would be made easier with the suggestions I made above.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#497An article about the web and it doesn't mention quintessential terms like 'link', 'network' or 'platform independence' even once. Do you know why your 1990s app was so much 'better' than today's web apps? Because it was only supposed to run on Microsoft Windows, and a specific version of Windows at that! The same applies to layouts. If all you have to deal with is SVGA and Windows 95 layout constraints are a piece of…
> WebStorm, Visual Studio Code ...
You clearly have no idea what an IDE, as opposed to code editor, is.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#498Earlier quoted context omitted.
The security aspect was an interesting part of this piece, because one of the main reasons webapps took over from Windows apps is because they were perceived as more secure. I could disable ActiveX and Java and be reasonably confident that visiting a webpage would not pwn my computer, which I certainly couldn't do when downloading software from the Internet. And then a major reason mobile apps took over from webapps…
i disagree with one premise...web apps werent ever seen as a more secure alternative to windows apps. they were seen as easier to deploy. that was netscapes big threat to MS. You could deploy an app to a large audience easily. its hard to get across how hard things were back in the day. citrix came out as an option as well...same deal. easier to deploy. people really thought activex was brilliant...until security bec…
Agreed. They are easier to deploy, even multiple times per day. This is one of their selling points even today compared to native mobile applications, which have other advantages.
Another advantage is that they are inherently available across OSes, usually across different browsers (but we know what it takes.)
Finally, they used to be much more easy to develop.
Tldr: larger audience, less costs.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#499I sympathize with the sentiment, but the web app only sucks if you're using the stuff that sucks. Like any technology with decades of evolution it has a thick sediment of peat. Half of Javascript, half of Windows, even half of *nix is garbage you should never use, but it's all there because old things would stop working without it. It's just that the web has a very low barrier to entry and very high reach, so the com…
> but the web app only sucks if you're using the stuff that sucks. Please show me anything that doesn't suck on the web. And yes, I've been doing web development for close to 17 years now. There's almost nothing that doesn't suck on the web. The languages, the tooling, the platform - you name it. It is good for one thing, and one thing only: displaying single-page interlinked documents with little to no embedded medi…
You should really change careers.
Re: It’s time to kill the web app
#500I rather think, It's time, to completley ignore sensationalistic rant's like this one. First of, killing a technology does not solve anything. It just means less options. So do propose your better solution (and build it) - then we can talk about killing the current thing. But the way it is today, the web works. Definitely not flawless and in large parts really ugly (just browsing with open dev-tools is horrifying, wh…
What's odd is that this article is so well written that it really clicks with bitter developers who are just confused in the vast sea of alternative technologies with the web. At least that's my guess why there's so many upvotes here. I feel that anyone who rants like this comes from a low level micromanagement world where they have extreme control over everything any they can't have it with web technologies. Fine, b…
I kind of feel like the web and all that's gone into it is similar to all the work that went into the JVM to make it what it is. Kind of ridiculous, the platform we are on and the sheer amount of intelligence and hard work to make it as efficient as it is is astounding. Maybe because constraints breed creativity to do something with the garbage you have. So I honestly think it's better than it's ever been, but at the same time I understand the author's gripes of "This should have been designed with X in mind first and foremost"