Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber • Hacker News Board

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#491

Post by maxlybbert » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:02 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #314

projektir wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is one reason victim blaming is popular: If it is their fault, then other people don't have to wonder what they might do differently or get off their lazy duff and walk the walk instead of just engaging in smack talk. I think the true reason is a bit deeper: victim blaming means that bad events can be compartmentalized to be the victim's problem. So a person engaging in it doesn't have to emotionally deal with t…

Good comment, but: That being said, I don't know if I'd call "she should sue" victim-blaming, even though the reason is probably about the same. This reminds me of some of the BS I have seen where people insist a woman should prosecute her rapist. One of the problems with this line of reasoning is that it makes it the victim's responsibility to try to right this wrong. What if she just wants to put the whole damn thi…

> This reminds me of some of the BS I have seen where people insist a woman should prosecute her rapist. One of the problems with this line of reasoning is that it makes it the victim's responsibility to try to right this wrong.

Simply put, that's the system we have. It's designed with the assumption that having adversaries argue according to rules in front of a judge is a good way to figure out what really happened.

It's not necessarily the best way to solve the kind of things it's used for, but we don't have an alternative.

> What if she just wants to put the whole damn thing behind her and not let it eat any more of her life instead of dragging the pain out longer?

I can certainly sympathize with that decision.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#492

Post by true_religion » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:02 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #314

projektir wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is one reason victim blaming is popular: If it is their fault, then other people don't have to wonder what they might do differently or get off their lazy duff and walk the walk instead of just engaging in smack talk. I think the true reason is a bit deeper: victim blaming means that bad events can be compartmentalized to be the victim's problem. So a person engaging in it doesn't have to emotionally deal with t…

Good comment, but: That being said, I don't know if I'd call "she should sue" victim-blaming, even though the reason is probably about the same. This reminds me of some of the BS I have seen where people insist a woman should prosecute her rapist. One of the problems with this line of reasoning is that it makes it the victim's responsibility to try to right this wrong. What if she just wants to put the whole damn thi…

> This reminds me of some of the BS I have seen where people insist a woman should prosecute her rapist.

I was under the impression that criminal cases were pressed by the state, not any given individual.

The only thing the state may ask is testimony from the victim. If the victim is unwilling or unable to give that, then the case may just fall apart due to lack of evidence.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#493

Post by bendoernberg » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:03 AM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #434

spuz wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that this kind of male dominated culture doesn't just put off female engineers but male engineers too. As a male I've worked in environments with a high male to female ratio and it makes for a stifling homogeneous type of culture. I've never experienced the kind of sexist culture described at Uber but I imagine that must feel even worse as a male employee. I definitely see few women as…

I don't know what you mean by "even worse as a male employee", but I suspect you've drastically misspoken; you might want to fix that.

I think he may have meant "worse even as a male employee" or something to that effect.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#494

Post by male_no_30122 » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:05 AM UTC

A blog post like this gets so much attention where is the fucking evidence? I am a male from Iran having spent more than half of my life here and worked in Silicon Valley long enough to be considered an easy target for labels like terrorist and misogynist simultaneously (finally I'm beginning to believe it, how slow of me.) I have to say there is more and more similarities between the two with each passing day, with very little substance and meaning behind those concepts, just a vague feeling of unfairness, a thread to our identity and a powerful tool to control and manipulate and not on behalf of the proclaimed victims of course. Why should YC or VCs give more money to females founders, blacks and hispanics? [1] [2] Are we not pawns in an ugly game of moral superiority and virtue played out by those looking to profit from our moral outrage and fear? [1] http://blog.samaltman.com/2017-yc-annual-letter (much high acceptance rate for those demographics) [2] https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/26/winnie-grabs-2-5-million-f.... (a publication about babies raises 2.5MM, female founders, having worked at places like Google and Twitter gets you a free pass with VCs if you're a woman? Homebrew Capital: Well her, she must be special not her male-counter-parts. What is special and investment-worthy about this publication and those founders, and not just adding an uptick in their portfolio's founder ratio? Hey look we got two female founders in one round!

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#495

Post by madeofpalk » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:05 AM UTC

bootload wrote: post #211

uber_eng_throw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hijacking this top comment to provide some personal experiences. I started as an engineer in the spring of 2014 and this was definitely the case there. Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering team. The misogynistic culture, in my mind, comes from most of the early employees being former frat bros. Culture was extremely heavy…

"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team dynamics. Ultimately this will reflect on the product and bottom line. For individuals this reads like a culture where the barrel is creating ^bad apples^. Not a good look on a resume.

Just because there's drinking at work, doesn't mean they drink while programming.

I've worked at plenty of places with a social drinking culture and never could we be bothered to actually code and drink at the same time. Maybe we might have a boozy friday lunch every now and then, but usually retros and 'meetings' like that followed

Also, I think the statement "extremely heavy on the drinking" is so subjective and up to personal interpretation.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#496

Post by mst » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:05 AM UTC

knucklesandwich wrote: post #436

morgante wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People hear the term "union" and they think "shop rules" and "union contract salary". The problem is that a significant number of the people who push "unions" (especially on places like HN) are actually trying to push for those things. Just look in this thread to find people arguing over whether there actually are large differences in developer performance. If people want a professional association (I do!) let's ca…

Hi, I assume you're talking about me (the person above expressing some skepticism about the 10x programmer thing). I'm actually open to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that makes much of a difference in terms of how compensation is justified in the real world (again, ask your employer to provide justification for salaries if you think 10x programmers exist and they are paid as such). Whether or not I'm right, I'm o…

> A professional association by contrast does not work to help workers in a workplace dispute.

Some don't. Some do.

I am currently a member of one that does, up to and including litigating a case is appropriate.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#497

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:06 AM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #434

spuz wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that this kind of male dominated culture doesn't just put off female engineers but male engineers too. As a male I've worked in environments with a high male to female ratio and it makes for a stifling homogeneous type of culture. I've never experienced the kind of sexist culture described at Uber but I imagine that must feel even worse as a male employee. I definitely see few women as…

I don't know what you mean by "even worse as a male employee", but I suspect you've drastically misspoken; you might want to fix that.

[deleted]

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#498

Post by true_religion » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:06 AM UTC

toothbrush wrote: post #465

PaulRobinson wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a "whiskey club", and regularly go to the pub where I work. We don't do it at lunchtime. We don't do it during the working day. 5:30pm on a Friday? Let's have a glass of whiskey together. Somebody joining/leaving, or we haven't been out together for a while? Let's go to the pub after work one evening. There is a #drinks channel in Slack where people who fancy a drink after work co-ordinate, and several of wil…

> As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. Except for the non-drinkers in your team. I suspect that they either a) feel left out, because a non-drinker at a pub has a boring time, and has to keep justifying their empty glass b) probably miss out on important decisions if a majority of the important people in a team are present, which is bad dynamics c)…

Some workplaces have sporting clubs that people participate in to grow closer to their coworkers. Yet if you don't like tenis, baseball, basketball, golf, or hiking then you are out of luck.

Every social activity will exclude people who don't like the activity by default. There's no real working around this.

Even if you just have a 'talking' club, you exclude people who aren't natural extroverts or find large group conversations to be maddening.

In essence, there's no way to be perfectly fair... so at best you can have different choices to try to be as inclusive as possible with limited time.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#499

Post by jonathankoren » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:06 AM UTC

billconan wrote: post #312

uber_eng_throw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hijacking this top comment to provide some personal experiences. I started as an engineer in the spring of 2014 and this was definitely the case there. Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering team. The misogynistic culture, in my mind, comes from most of the early employees being former frat bros. Culture was extremely heavy…

I went to visit the instagram office on the fb main campus and saw a huge liquor exhibition.

There are tons of bars at FB. My experience was that people would only go on the fortnightly drinking event, and then it was mostly grabbing an hors dourve and then retiring back to their desk after a single bottle of that. It's pantomime of a drinking culture.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#500

Post by camdenlock » Mon, Feb 20, 2017, 2:06 AM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #434

spuz wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that this kind of male dominated culture doesn't just put off female engineers but male engineers too. As a male I've worked in environments with a high male to female ratio and it makes for a stifling homogeneous type of culture. I've never experienced the kind of sexist culture described at Uber but I imagine that must feel even worse as a male employee. I definitely see few women as…

I don't know what you mean by "even worse as a male employee", but I suspect you've drastically misspoken; you might want to fix that.

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