U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#491

Post by dkersten » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 11:18 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #463

dkersten wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are insane if you think auto mechanics, miners, truck drivers, plumbers, construction workers, landscapers, or working on fishing vessels, or other physically demanding, laborious jobs, are not preferred more by men than women. Yeah, and girls prefer pink... How much of this is because of how women are brought up, believing that these are mens jobs, rather than by nature? Women do plenty of physically demanding j…

In poor countries, there are plenty of women doing physically exhausting jobs, but also plenty of women pursuing engineering careers. On the other hand, in many rich countries most jobs have huge gender disparities. It all comes down to the freedom of choice given to people -- if you're rich and you're free to choose what you are going to do, you'll choose whatever you like the most.

I agree with what you say. My point is just that "whatever you like the most" is biased by your upbringing, culture and media. Hence my "girls prefer pink" comment - that's not nature, its nurture - because we're brought up to associate pink with femininity.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#492

Post by inimino » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 11:25 AM UTC

dlss wrote: post #426

inimino wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not the person I was asking, and I didn't ask for a definition. In case you missed my point, we aren't talking about physics here, but about society, which is a reality we create . Appealing to "reality" in a discussion about bias amounts to throwing up your hands and dismissing the problem as just "the way things are". It's like if you described a complicated social problem you've observed and I shrugged and…

> Appealing to "reality" in a discussion about bias amounts to throwing up your hands and dismissing the problem as just "the way things are". Yes, that was how I read GGP's comment. I think you are overstating the degree of control that we have over society. For example, I have often heard the case that society influences young women into roles that eventually prevent them from becoming engineers. Gendered children'…

There is plenty of evidence that people have conscious and unconscious biases. There is ample evidence that the American criminal justice system, for example, is biased at several levels. I see where you're coming from: at any discussion of bias, you would rather blame it on genetics, which means we as a society are not responsible for doing anything about it.

I'm sure the people that have been forced into high-paying fields against their natural inclinations appreciate your feeling ill on their behalf, though. /s

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#493

Post by sheepmullet » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 11:42 AM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #489

sheepmullet wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when it comes down to it choosing a neurosurgeon over an entry level software developer makes a lot of sense. What is wrong with wanting to prioritise people who have lots of experience and skill?

Why even prioritize ? The need to prioritize assumes the existence of arbitrary numerical limits on immigration. I think we should just eliminate the limits on employment-based immigration entirely, with the only restriction being that such immigration does not depress US wages (which is already implemented as the LCA today). At the very least, use qualitative limits, not quantitative limits. But even better, just le…

> I think we should just eliminate the limits on employment-based immigration entirely

> But even better, just let peaceful immigrants in.

How would the US absorb the hundreds of millions who would come?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#494

Post by dsr_ » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 11:45 AM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #483

dsr_ wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heaviest thing an auto mechanic typically lifts is a tire. Everything else is going to be lifted by a hoist, because no human, male or female, can pull an engine out of a car. Auto mechanic is, in fact, a skilled job involving a mental model of a very complex system, diagnosis, testing, research, and tool usage. Modern mining is done primarily by machines which are tended to by mechanics. Ever wonder why there ar…

You are sounding like you have never worked in a job like this. I have worked for a carpenter and an automechanic. Ever seen someone unable to even get the heat shrink wrap off a pneumatic tool and replace the lines? I saw someone unable to do it and end up gashing their hand as they were trying to cut it off. Ever work under a hot engine bay for 8 hours? Holding your hands above your head the entire time, and develo…

Seen someone screw up because they weren't trained: yup.

Work under a hot engine bay for 8 hours: no, but I've worked outdoors carrying construction material during heat waves, and I've worked indoors in cold data centers.

Holding my hands over my head until pain develops: yup. I don't recommend it to anyone.

Used an angle grinder: no. I have used lots of other power tools. Should you trust me with one? Not until I'm trained on it.

Lifted 300lb pieces of granite: no. We have these things called wheels, you might have heard of them? Using wheels and levers and ropes and pulleys, I have moved much heavier things. I recommend using appropriate tools. Hoists? Cranes? Block-and-tackle?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#495

Post by dlss » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 11:54 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #492

dlss wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Appealing to "reality" in a discussion about bias amounts to throwing up your hands and dismissing the problem as just "the way things are". Yes, that was how I read GGP's comment. I think you are overstating the degree of control that we have over society. For example, I have often heard the case that society influences young women into roles that eventually prevent them from becoming engineers. Gendered children'…

There is plenty of evidence that people have conscious and unconscious biases. There is ample evidence that the American criminal justice system, for example, is biased at several levels. I see where you're coming from: at any discussion of bias, you would rather blame it on genetics, which means we as a society are not responsible for doing anything about it. I'm sure the people that have been forced into high-payin…

> There is plenty of evidence that people have conscious and unconscious biases.

Agreed. I didn't say otherwise, I just also pointed out that there's evidence some of those biases are genetic.

> There is ample evidence that the American criminal justice system, for example, is biased at several levels.

I believe this should be fixed! I'm the person who linked the google formalism for modifying a model to be non-racist. This whole thread came from that.

> I see where you're coming from: at any discussion of bias, you would rather blame it on genetics, which means we as a society are not responsible for doing anything about it.

No. My position is that I want bankers to use a race-blinded models when deciding on loans. In general, where there is bias (especially where there is genetic/non-correctable bias), I believe the biased human should be replaced by a computer programmed to not have a bias.

I want this because I think the problem is real, I would like it solved, and I believe the other methods people propose (bias training, etc) are unlikely to work.

I also believe replacing as many humans as possible will not fix all the problems I imagine you are currently attributing to societal bias (ie I believe that some life decisions may well have a large genetic component). I do not view those "problems" as things to be solved, so much as deeply disturbing indications that free will does not exist. That in some sense you and I might be discussing optimization methods for player happiness in a zero player game. That in as much as happiness exists, I worry it is primarily found by embracing our genetic biases.

> I'm sure the people that have been forced into high-paying fields against their natural inclinations appreciate your feeling ill on their behalf, though. /s

People used to make arguments like this in defense of arranged marriages you know. Letting the heart decide isn't stupid.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#496

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

logandavis wrote: post #450

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he meant the following. Suppose that for University X, the minimal SAT requirement for white applicants was 700/700, and for black applicants was 400/400. Suppose that the SAT scores of all white students at X are uniformly distributed over (700-800/700-800), and those of the black students are uniformly distributed over (400-800/400-800). Now randomly pick one white student, and one black student. Which of t…

Your heart surgery question is ridiculous. As anyone who has taken the SAT can attest, it has nothing to do with ability to perform complex medical procedures. As for your question about which number drawn at random from two differently distributed populations would be higher on average - yes, in this hypothetical college that admits black students with SAT scores below the black population's average but only takes w…

My post above was merely an attempt to clarify, in broad strokes, the garanduss's point ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13432466 )

Perhaps my use of SAT scores in particular was a mistake, but hopefully you came away with a better understanding of garanduss's original post.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#497

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #491

xyzzyz wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In poor countries, there are plenty of women doing physically exhausting jobs, but also plenty of women pursuing engineering careers. On the other hand, in many rich countries most jobs have huge gender disparities. It all comes down to the freedom of choice given to people -- if you're rich and you're free to choose what you are going to do, you'll choose whatever you like the most.

I agree with what you say. My point is just that "whatever you like the most" is biased by your upbringing, culture and media. Hence my "girls prefer pink" comment - that's not nature, its nurture - because we're brought up to associate pink with femininity.

Did you know that young monkeys of many species (rhesus, bonobo) have pretty gendered preference when it comes to the toy choice? Female monkeys prefer soft toys like teddy bears, while male prefer mechanical toys, like cars on wheels. Google "monkey gender toy preference", there has been tons of research on it.

This means that even if preference for pink was purely by nurture (which I also consider unlikely), the data on toy preference strongly suggests that preference for certain jobs or activities is not purely nurture, and has at least some nature aspect.

Now, it is difficult to quantify how much exactly is the split between nature and nurture, one of the reasons being the fact that lots of what you would call nurture would never take place if a nature didn't provide people with preferences in the first place. However, blaming everything on "upbringing, culture and media" is certainly incongruent with reality.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#498

Post by SamUK96 » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #290

SamUK96 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but do you have any evidence or experience that Oracle is "testerone-y", nevermind "outwardly" so? To generalise an entire company, a kind of global one at that, as that, just comes of as incredibly bitter and nieve.

Do you do business with them in any capacity? They pay a lot of money to build that persona. Unreadable this, unbeatable that, sailboats, fighter jets, etc. I was in a meeting when some SVP dude called on us. His big story was how when they bought Sun they hit their target for shutting down EMEA Sun operations, but in doing so fucked their customers and they couldn't ship product for 3-4 months. It was pitched as a "…

Doing shady business is not "testerone-y", it has nothing to do with genders. It's a business tactic, a scheme, etc..

> Unreadable this, unbeatable that, sailboats, fighter jets, etc.

A company stating it's "unbeatable", has "sailboats", or whatever, again, has nothing to do with "testerone".

In fact, you'll find that for ever rich male CEO/owner of a company with a sailboat bragging about it, there will be a rich female CEO/owner of a sailboat bragging about it.

You may have been mixed up since there are less female CEO's, so it seems that it's a "male thing", but really, every study shows that when but in the right position, females and males will do equally fantastic, or horrible, or stupid things.

I think maybe you need to make things less about "male vs female"?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#499

Post by vitaminbandit » Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 6:31 PM UTC

logandavis wrote: post #450

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he meant the following. Suppose that for University X, the minimal SAT requirement for white applicants was 700/700, and for black applicants was 400/400. Suppose that the SAT scores of all white students at X are uniformly distributed over (700-800/700-800), and those of the black students are uniformly distributed over (400-800/400-800). Now randomly pick one white student, and one black student. Which of t…

Your heart surgery question is ridiculous. As anyone who has taken the SAT can attest, it has nothing to do with ability to perform complex medical procedures. As for your question about which number drawn at random from two differently distributed populations would be higher on average - yes, in this hypothetical college that admits black students with SAT scores below the black population's average but only takes w…

His heart surgery question is ridiculous, but standardized testing is clearly necessary. There are more than 30,000 high schools in the US, meaning 30,000+ valedictorians. There are ~1,500 freshmen spots at Harvard, how does Harvard choose who to admit? And which elite schools disregard SAT scores? I only did a small sample (MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale) and they all require the SAT/ACT.

Secondly, many elite schools pride themselves on "need-blind" admissions, meaning they do not know the applicant's financial situation when deciding whether or not to admit him/her. This is to protect poor kids from being discriminated against (since they would need extra financial aid from the school), but it also means they can't give a leg-up to poor students.

Given that family income is highly correlated with SAT performance, it's pretty perverse that the best way for a poor student to gain admission into an elite university is to ace their SAT's and masquerade as a rich kid on their application.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#500

Post by wallace_f » Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 5:38 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #497

dkersten wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you say. My point is just that "whatever you like the most" is biased by your upbringing, culture and media. Hence my "girls prefer pink" comment - that's not nature, its nurture - because we're brought up to associate pink with femininity.

Did you know that young monkeys of many species (rhesus, bonobo) have pretty gendered preference when it comes to the toy choice? Female monkeys prefer soft toys like teddy bears, while male prefer mechanical toys, like cars on wheels. Google "monkey gender toy preference", there has been tons of research on it. This means that even if preference for pink was purely by nurture (which I also consider unlikely), the da…

Of course it is. Our country has spent 14 trillion on wars in recent years while we can't provide everyone with healthcare, or even clean drinking water. This issue is not about civil liberties or human rights. This is about people's feelings who have political representation. Lawyers who can profit off of it. And an increasingly authoritarian, surveillance, human rights abusing, police state that wants to control the people it rules over. Harrison Bergeron, we will be seeing you soon in our future.

>“War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking into the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.”

― George Orwell, 1984

If people were really so equal, the NBA should be sued by Asians. There have been 2 (2!) women in history who have been able to dunk a basketball in a NCAA game. I could dunk a basketball in high school. Give me a break, the whole thing is ridiculously fraudulent. I would not want to work somewhere that had some bigoted, awful idea and attitude that a 'woman can not do a man's job,' I would never want to work somewhere like that -- but that's not the role of government to decide. We need people in government who are going to fight for civil liberties and human rights, people who will progress humanity off this planet and into the stars. People who will fight against corruption. Instead we get people who want to take advantage of people's feelings for their own profit or security.