The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#491

Post by ZeroGravitas » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

auxym wrote: post #350

kristofferR wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "When you are not in The Netherlands you should most definitely wear a helmet no matter what kind of bike." Why? It's actually not statistically safer.

Here are two credible reviews / meta-analyses stating the contrary, that is, that bicycle helmet use or legislation does, statistically, reduce head injuries. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457500... http://www.cochrane.org/CD005401/INJ_bicycle-helmet-legislat... That said, despite personally wearing a helmet on my daily commute, I don't support legislation. I unfortunately don't have sources o…

I always wore a helmet when I cycle commuted, so I think I mostly agree, but I will point out that my major objection to legislation is on the grounds that it would deter cycling, and therefore be a net negative for health overall, and that one of the most important factors for cycle safety is the number of cyclists, so anything that puts people off cycling creates a negative re-inforcement that makes everyone still cycling less safe, and every new cyclist makes everyone safer.

At least one of your studies notes that it doesn't cover that argument:

> None of the included studies measured actual bicycle use so it was not possible to evaluate the claim that fewer individuals were cycling due to the implementation of the helmet laws. Although the results of the review support bicycle helmet legislation for reducing head injuries, the evidence is currently insufficient to either support or negate the claims of bicycle helmet opponents that helmet laws may discourage cycling.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#492

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

auxym wrote: post #350

kristofferR wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "When you are not in The Netherlands you should most definitely wear a helmet no matter what kind of bike." Why? It's actually not statistically safer.

Here are two credible reviews / meta-analyses stating the contrary, that is, that bicycle helmet use or legislation does, statistically, reduce head injuries. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457500... http://www.cochrane.org/CD005401/INJ_bicycle-helmet-legislat... That said, despite personally wearing a helmet on my daily commute, I don't support legislation. I unfortunately don't have sources o…

The fun angle on that is that legislating helmet use makes people bike less, which is what really lowers bike accidents.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#493

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license

This is very important with regards to understanding and predicting how others behave. It's very hard for people to appreciate how different the POV can be in a different situation. I experienced this once when I herniated a disk in my lower back. Before I had to live with such a condition, I had been annoyed at how oddly and slowly some elderly people moved when boarding the bus. After having to deal with the pain, I understood the motivation behind waiting until the bus was fully stopped before moving, and why some people would methodically move from hand-hold to hand-hold: because to move more quickly would result in Pain!

In the US, I see lots of drivers who seem to struggle with even understanding other car drivers. It's no wonder that bicycle riders feel cars are a-holes to them. It's because cars don't understand what they are doing and what it's like to be on the receiving end of such behavior.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#494

Post by henryaj » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #453

auxym wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are two credible reviews / meta-analyses stating the contrary, that is, that bicycle helmet use or legislation does, statistically, reduce head injuries. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457500... http://www.cochrane.org/CD005401/INJ_bicycle-helmet-legislat... That said, despite personally wearing a helmet on my daily commute, I don't support legislation. I unfortunately don't have sources o…

Use or legislation of helmets while driving a car and walking would also almost certainly reduce head injuries. It's far from a sufficient argument for legislation.

> Use or legislation of helmets while driving a car would almost certainly reduce head injuries

Hence the legal requirement to wear seatbelts.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#495

Post by happy-go-lucky » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

> All politicians drive bike, the Dutch Prime Minister comes to work on his bike

That's very interesting!

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#496

Post by et-al » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #190

et-al wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in China don't wear helmets either. Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with). Also, we have bike light laws in California, but there are plenty of cyclists that don't use them. Personally, if I had to choose between riding without a helmet,…

> Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with). This is wrong. There's some research done on that over here (Finland). First of all, about two thirds of severe bicycle injuries happen without any third parties involved, cars or not. Head injuries are the wo…

> Finally, I totally agree with what you say about lights. In the dark, they are more important than helmet. But that's not a choice you have to make. Have both.

Yup, didn't mean to make them mutually exclusive, but I wanted to emphasize the fact that helmets are like safety belts, as you and eridius alluded to. They're great, they can prevent further brain injury, but as riders, we should take further preventative steps such as being visible and assuming drivers can't see us.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#497

Post by uses » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #311

stephenr wrote: post #215

I'm not quite sure I understand. Do Americans not look at what's coming from behind them before opening a slab of metal and glass a meter out the side of their cars? Kind of reminds me of when I first moved to Thailand. My (now) mother-in-law asked her daughter why I kept looking over my shoulder when driving her car, and why/if I couldn't use the side mirrors. She had literally never heard of nor understood the conc…

> She had literally never heard of nor understood the concept of a blind spot. I've done a good amount of driving in the undeveloped and developing world (40k miles AK->Argentina, now 10k miles in West Africa, going to do about 80k) Blindspots are not considered here. Driving is much more fluid, and you really only need to watch what is happening in front of you. After all, the car behind/beside you can see you much…

Wow, that's a really accurate description of what it was like in China as well, specifically in Beijing. The large intersections were some kind of organically flowing chaos of differing modes of transportation. And the honk was used as more of a "I'm coming through". Which makes a lot more sense than a "hey I don't like what you did".

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#498

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #423

agumonkey wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't lean left when looking back, but I just can't look back confidently because I lose track of what's happening in front of us. My first and only accident occured because I was so anxious to check the blindspot I didn't see the traffic stopping and I rear-ended someone. Blindspotless mirrors are a no brainer (they should be mandatory tbh). There are even inner car blindspot checking mirror, so you avoid the conf…

Honest question: In what situation were you travelling forward close enough to rear-end another car that you also needed to check your blind spot?

Highway traffic jam. Long period of slow (3mph) drive, then full stop. I was near an exit so I decided to branch of on the right lane that was free of cars, thus still fast (50mph) to take the ramp. Our lane started to move again very slowly, I took the chance to switch lane, but was anxious about the high speed cars, so I checked, double checked, without realizing my lane stopped again while I was taking up speed (hoping not to cause people to slow too much in emergency) and switching lane.

Hit the right light of the car in front with my left one. Now causing real slow down and even more traffic jam.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#499

Post by NetStrikeForce » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:30 PM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #395

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you carry a bag around already? If your commute is one hour cycling in guessing you might sweat and need a shower? I cycle to work (in the UK, similar climate I guess) for about 15 minutes each way with no steep roads and I gotta be very careful with my pace if I don't want to sweat.

Well, go slower then. I hardly know anybody who commutes by cycle for an hour every day, that is too long. Personally I ride to the train station (8 minutes), take the train to the city I work in (~20 minutes), then ride the other bicycle to work from there (15 minutes).

> Well, go slower then.

I guess that works in countries where there are no steep hills ;-)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#500

Post by et-al » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:33 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #483

et-al wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in China don't wear helmets either. Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with). Also, we have bike light laws in California, but there are plenty of cyclists that don't use them. Personally, if I had to choose between riding without a helmet,…

" ...but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one. " An uncontrolled fall from a standing height is potentially fatal. The impact tests for motorcycle helmets are typically an ~2 meter drop. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=88107031183058372...

Agreed, but when people fall, they usually try not to land head first. Also, I was assuming that many commuters in other parts of the world ride more upright bikes (e.g. "Dutch" bikes) that are easier to bail off of. If I get doored while riding at 12mph on an upright bicycle, I'd be more worried about my genitals smashing into the stem of the bike than falling on my head.

Again, I'm not saying helmets are useless, but we should view them as seat belts, or even lap belts as best.