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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#491

Post by krapp »

cname wrote: post #474
davidf18 wrote: post #263

The BrExit vote was caused by the same problem that enables Trump (and Sanders) to win so many votes. The British Elites, like the Republic Elites are ignoring the pain caused to the working class through trade agreements and (in the case of BrExit) immigration from poorer parts of Europe. In different ways the EU integration put an additional burden on the already struggling British working class. As a specific exam…

I'm confused. Are you saying that Trump is not part of what you're calling the "Republic Elite"? Or that he's not part of the billionaire class? That he's not highly connected? Are you saying he actually cares about the working class? I don't understand how average Americans can buy into this idea that Trump is some kind of outsider. He rubs shoulders with all kinds of rich, powerful, and connected people, including…

>I don't understand how average Americans can buy into this idea that Trump is some kind of outsider.

It's because Trump is politically incorrect. He dresses like the just got off shift at the factory and makes jokes about his dick size and most importantly, when he speaks, he doesn't come off as being more informed or articulate than his supporters.

All it takes for a politician to convince Americans they're not part of the "elite," is to act like a convincing caricature of "the common man."

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#492

Post by nsomaru »

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

Disclaimer: armchair politik.

Benevolent dictatorship. Someone who can think better than mostly everyone and is dedicated to service to the nation above all else.

In theory (s)he always makes the best decision because (s)he is not swayed by excess emotion and is able to keep the best interest of the nation in view at all times.

Another option arises if we have a truly objective test of benevolent rationality (yes I just made that term up now), then we could weight votes by this measure; this will change political rhetoric from emotional to rational and it would encourage all members of society to become more rational.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#493

Post by znkq »

mikeash wrote: post #379
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.) People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or…

On the other hand being a member of the EU is very serious business from a constitutional point of view.

Given this point of view it seems just as reasonable to require a super majority for staying. I.e. unless the wast majority is comfortable with deligating (a very significant amount) of power to the EU, why should it be allowed?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#494

Post by mac01021 »

lettergram wrote: post #31
twoquestions wrote: post #12

"People of $MY_IDENTITY believe a thing, so I'll vote for it no matter what $OTHERS say!" I thought before reading that story that the above was a bad caricature, but holy shit. How can you not know what the EU is if you're in a member country and can read? It's like an American not knowing what Congress is!

My guess is that both sides are equally curious of the outcome. A large number of voters for leaving the EU were older, so I anticipate many of them aren't using Google to figure it out (as they both lived prior to the EU and are naturally less inclined to search on Google). Likely its the younger crowd trying to figure out "what now?"

By asking "What is the EU?"?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#495

Post by stephenr »

meric wrote: post #210
mikeash wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big chunk of Americans almost want it to be a police state, so they have something to fight against. It makes me think of Sam Altman's recent article about Trump. He said he was taking some risk by writing that, and some commenters here praised his bravery in taking a public stand on this. It's ridiculous. Bravery would be a prominent techie taking a stand for Trump. He's not going to suffer any consequence…

I got some really bad looks in my office building when some people overheard me telling a colleague I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars. One person looked at me like if they could kill me, he would, like I was some enemy. A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part. No, I don't feel comfortable writ…

Pretty sure South Korea and the countries within missile range of North Korea would disagree with you.

Also, when trump completely fucks the US economy, the rest of us will get fucked no matter how much we do or don't care about your neck of the woods.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#496

Post by makomk »

cookiecaper wrote: post #380
fnovd wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your government voted for a lifetime stipend of $10000/month for everyone over 65, to be paid for by higher taxes on renters, students, and earners? I think there is a breaking point where it is unacceptable to support the wants of an aging population over the future of the young, even by majority vote. However, I don't think the Brexit falls into that category.

Here's the thing: old people don't vote for that kind of thing, at least not if they have children and grandchildren. They've invested decades of heavy personal sacrifice into building a future for their posterity. They're not going to counteract that lifelong goal and knowingly vote for something that will inflict real pain or hindrance on the generations they've parented. Personally I believe the elderly make much…

Here's the thing: if you look at how the UK welfare system treats (say) the younger people who lose their jobs or suffer accidents or illness that stops them from working compared with how it treats the elderly, and pay attention to the politics behind it, or if you think about the emphasis on ensuring house price growth and who benefits, or... the comment you're replying to is an exaggeration of what already happens.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#497

Post by ludamad »

oldmanjay wrote: post #111
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

Being "the best wrestler" is basically Trump's campaign strategy so that concept may well be tested soon

Relevant https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2016/03/AP_0...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#498

Post by k__ »

makomk wrote: post #488
zghst wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, I'd like to hear more =)

Our biggest newspapers, the Sun and the Daily Mail, have huge political influence here. They were both strongly pro-Brexit, as was the Telegraph. They've also been anti-EU for decades.

That was my impression, thank you.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#499

Post by mikeash »

znkq wrote: post #493
mikeash wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.) People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or…

On the other hand being a member of the EU is very serious business from a constitutional point of view. Given this point of view it seems just as reasonable to require a super majority for staying. I.e. unless the wast majority is comfortable with deligating (a very significant amount) of power to the EU, why should it be allowed?

I'm proposing that a supermajority should be required for changes either way. Since the UK is already in the EU, you'd need a supermajority to leave. This builds some hysteresis into the system to reduce short-term swings.

Note that a referendum was held shortly after the UK joined the EC, and that was 67% in favor of it.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#500

Post by prewett »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #335
nbouscal wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What prominent lies from Remain? There was a lot of what people were calling scaremongering, but if you look at the markets it looks like it was pretty accurate. I've seen thorough takedowns of blatant lies from Leave, but haven't seen anything similar for Remain.

The markets are in panic mode for the moment, but it will recover, it always does.

UK or US markets? The S&P 500 is down 3% at the moment, that's not panic. Panic is more like 10 - 20% in a day (UK was down 9% at one point), or 5% every day for a week like in 2008.
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