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San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

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Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#491

Post by mrgordon »

mrgordon wrote: post #159
nostrademons wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends which part of Oakland. Some parts of Oakland (eg. Rockridge, Temescal) are significantly nicer than SF. They aren't exactly cheap, but your safety : price ratio is significantly better than in say, the Mission.

They may appear nicer but when I read Yelp reviews in Rockridge and Temescal they occasionally mention the bars on the windows or robberies taking place which I've never seen in San Francisco. Not trying to say the average person will encounter problems but I do think even those areas have more crime than you'd think. As someone who lived in Oakland and now has rent control in the Mission, I would say that my safety…

Wow, very surprised to see I got downvoted for sharing a perfectly valid anecdote after living in Oakland and San Francisco. I'm sorry if you feel differently but downvoting comments just because you don't agree with them is rather immature and only serves to limit discourse by discouraging people from sharing their opinions, experiences, and facts. I was polite in my response and even pointed out that the average person is unlikely to encounter problems.

Here are some further details for those who care about the facts:

1. This is a representative review for one Thai restaurant that I wanted to go to in Rockridge where I noticed many reviews mentioned them being robbed repeatedly and now the restaurant has to buzz customers through the door because of it (read the first review or search for "robbery"): http://www.yelp.com/biz/saysetha-thai-cuisine-oakland?hrid=u...

2. Here is a recent article about how middle class residents of many neighborhoods including Rockridge and Temescal have resorted to hiring private security forces due to the rampant crime problems: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/30/oakland-priv...

3. Here is an article describing why robbers like Rockridge and other "target rich" neighborhoods where it is easy to rob rich people and escape: http://patch.com/california/rockridge/why-robbers-like-rockr...

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#492

Post by hocuspocus »

mercutio2 wrote: post #398
hocuspocus wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just come back from two weeks in the Bay area to see a bunch of friends and they all do that. Even though I find it insane as much you do, I understand. There are a few good reasons though, from our very European and biased point of view: * No need to own car, or at least no need to drive everyday. * For a spouse on a H-4 visa and who thus cannot work, living in the city makes things easier and a lot less boring…

Most of the big tech companies have Berkeley buses. You don't have to work in SF/Oakland if you live in Berkeley.

You're right but I've heard it typically takes about 1h30 door to door, that is beyond what I'd consider a reasonable commute.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#493

Post by ak4g »

bogomipz wrote: post #207
ak4g wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in NYC and frequented it's tech scene for about a year, ending mid-2013. Unless it's more-or-less quintupled in the last three years, there's no comparison. The first python meetup I went to in SF (back in 2013) had 300 spots and a waitlist that I doubt got cleared. The NYC meetups I went to managed maybe 80 RSVPs and a couple dozen who actually showed up. Once you get to anything more specialized than a prog…

So a meetup with 24 new people to network with wasn't enough for you? It's better to have meetup that you can't attend because there's a waitlist? How is that better? So far all I hear is density. Is density of tech workers the arbiter by which you just how good a "scene", I will take quality any day. Are all of them awesome, engaging, friendly and social and supportive?

I did make the Python meetup and several since; it's not like the waitlist was thousands long. It was just longer than what I gauged as the no-show rate.

The Python meetup was striking to me because it was closer to the scale of a PyCon than any meetup I'd seen. The actual meetup I attend more often is SFPUG, the local PostgreSQL group, which is more in the neighborhood of 20-40 attendees, once or twice a month. In NYC, if there is an active group around the particular corner of tech you inhabit, you're lucky to get decent meetup a quarter.

And quality is what pushed me to move here, despite my expectations, in the first place. Simply put, all of the very best developers I knew from my hometown (in Charlotte, before my stint in New York) had moved here. There were two in particular I'll always owe for having opened my eyes to how little I knew; I work maybe eight blocks away from one of them, the other I ran into out-of-the-blue at the aforementioned Python meetup, three days after I landed at SFO.

I've been working with people who make me very aware that I'm not the smartest person in the room (by their expertise, not their attitudes) for 30 months now. I do hate to say this, but it is why I didn't stick around in the end - in NYC, I really, really missed that.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#494

Post by Xcelerate »

bkjelden wrote: post #385
ryandrake wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious: How did you manage to transfer your Bay Area salary to Austin? I would imagine that $120K is a ridiculous amount there. How did you even ask for it with a straight face? Are you making 2X all of your co-workers or something?

HIRED indicates it's not unreasonable at all: http://get.hired.com/rs/348-IPO-044/images/Hired-State-of-Sa...

That's very interesting. Thanks for posting that.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#495

Post by randycupertino »

x0x0 wrote: post #357
whitenoice wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks but I find none of those unique to SF, you can get the same in other top cities. I don't know about Denver but in Boston/NY you have tons of good job opportunities, excellent engineering and scientific community with top firms/startups and excellent eng, business, and med schools. Close proximity to outdoors (New Hamshire, Maine). No doubt there are more startups/jobs in SF but at the same time it seems that i…

I don't know about Boston, but Maine is not in any sense close to nyc. I think the difference is distance. In sf, world class skiing is 3 hours away; the beach is 20 minutes in much of the city; great hiking is across the bridge in Marin or south along 1, well under an hour away. It's not a trip; enjoying the outdoors takes an afternoon. I have an acquaintance who works near the presidio and surfs over lunch. When I…

You should check out Boston. Tons of tech jobs and way closer to skiing. When I studied in Cambridge we were only 2 hours away from skiing at Waterville, door to door even on weekends with "thick" traffic. There's a reason so many skiers are "Massholes." That quick jaunt up I-93 is fantastic.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Harvard+University,+Cambridg...

Also my dorm in Boston to Sunday River which is a huge ski area in upper Maine was just about 3 hours.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#496

Post by nostrademons »

mrgordon wrote: post #491
mrgordon wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may appear nicer but when I read Yelp reviews in Rockridge and Temescal they occasionally mention the bars on the windows or robberies taking place which I've never seen in San Francisco. Not trying to say the average person will encounter problems but I do think even those areas have more crime than you'd think. As someone who lived in Oakland and now has rent control in the Mission, I would say that my safety…

Wow, very surprised to see I got downvoted for sharing a perfectly valid anecdote after living in Oakland and San Francisco. I'm sorry if you feel differently but downvoting comments just because you don't agree with them is rather immature and only serves to limit discourse by discouraging people from sharing their opinions, experiences, and facts. I was polite in my response and even pointed out that the average pe…

I wasn't the one who downvoted you.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#497

Post by b0p1x »

derefr wrote: post #284
jimminy wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that everything closed so early blew me away, when I moved there. Compared to the middle of nowhere WV it made zero sense. Even the grocery stores closed by midnight in SF. In WV, you can find food at most places until 12-1am 7 days a week. And the major local grocery is a Walmart, which is open 24 hours. Last Easter I had no clue nothing would be open, and didn't prepare for that. So I just had some crap pi…

Everything closing at 9PM is pretty much par for the course here in Vancouver, another city with the skyrocketing cost-of-living thing going on. I wonder if there's a correlation. Maybe everyone is rich enough to pay delivery services or maids or something to get their shopping done while they're at work, so there's no demand for 24-hour businesses? Then again, another thing with Vancouver (that I think I've heard sa…

A major factor in this is that the transit services largely die off at 1am in Vancouver. So for any workers at stores or restaurants they simply can't afford to go home after a certain point. The late night bus service is not good enough, take for example the N19. It is full of all the bar kids at 1am. You don't want to take that bus unless you're drunk.

I think you're onto something with the Victorian "healthy living" bit. There is some hypocrisy as well: the way Vancouverites talk down about alcohol drinkers or tobacco smokers all the time but meanwhile promote the pot trade and never talk about the rampant heroin problem in that city.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#498

Post by b0p1x »

nosuchthing wrote: post #409
derefr wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything closing at 9PM is pretty much par for the course here in Vancouver, another city with the skyrocketing cost-of-living thing going on. I wonder if there's a correlation. Maybe everyone is rich enough to pay delivery services or maids or something to get their shopping done while they're at work, so there's no demand for 24-hour businesses? Then again, another thing with Vancouver (that I think I've heard sa…

Vancouver anecdote; bars are not night life. I visited for two weeks and discovered a local music festival (music waste), befriended random folks at parks (parks were everywhere, and people actually used them!). East Van seemed to have a lively night life on par with SF/LA, people hosting live bands in their loft, avant-garde burlesque theater, house parties etc. It sounded like there was a lively festival scene in B…

They have the parties at home in east van because it is impossible to get a permit and/or a suitable venue for most events. There are very few venues for hosting parties and virtually no practice areas for bands. I've been to a number of events that were held in death-trap condemned buildings. I've even been locked in one illegally because someone called an ambulance and they didn't want to "blow their cover" so nobody could enter or exit for 30min while my friend waited outside in a back alley. Much prefer other cities where I can just go to a normal bar and not deal with entrapment issues.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#499

Post by delecti »

steveax wrote: post #416
pilom wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$18,000 per year in your 401k, $5500 in an IRA, $3350 in an HSA. That's $26,850 right off the bat. All tax free. Then max out your student loans and save up for the down payment on a house. Then date and find a spouse with a similar mindset about money. You'll be able to retire (literally never do work you don't want to do ever again) in 15-20 years easily if you keep your spending under control.

If you max out your 401k contribution ($18,000 if you're under 50) you can also contribute to an IRA (Roth or traditional) but your contribution will not reduce your taxable income.

The two aren't related. If you max out a traditional 401k and your income is low enough that you can take the traditional IRA deduction as well. Though that deduction phases out by $71k/year, which in our field is relatively low.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#500

Post by thedufer »

stouset wrote: post #488
thedufer wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the fact that a huge portion of startups start in SF could account for the fact that a huge portion of winners came from SF? You're also biased because you're paying more attention to startups in SF - the Bay area doesn't even come up with half of the big startups, and yet you failed to name a single one from anywhere else. A quick scan of Fortune's unicorn list* shows 12 out of the top 25 are from outside of…

Of the top 25, only two American companies are not in the Bay Area, and one of those is still in California. For an area with less than 2% of the country's population, that is overwhelmingly dominant. I'm not sure if you could have underscored my point any more succinctly.

Somehow you've managed to miscount the numbers, misrepresent your wrong numbers, and miss the point all at once.

The point is that you still have contributed no idea of what portion of startups are starting in SF. If 95% of startups come out of SF but only 80% of winners do, it still has an overwhelming majority but is by the numbers a terrible place to start a startup.

Of the top 25 international, only about half are American, so stop pretending the denominator is 25 if you've decided that international companies for some reason don't count. There are 2 in LA, one in Boston, and 1 in NYC (what list are you looking at?), giving the Bay Area something like 2/3 of American companies, and about 1/3 of all.

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