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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#481

Post by raylu »

codesuela wrote: post #138
milesskorpen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they meant to offend people is irrelevant — its pretty clear that jokes w/ sexual innuendo in a public context isn't okay. Period. Also, as others have said, this clearly wasn't a private situation. The whole problem with these jokes, even if not told directly to someone's face, is that they create a poisonous atmosphere.

>poisonous atmosphere as opposed to publicly shaming someone without prior warning?

That's bad too, but I think the original point still stands.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#482

Post by derrida »

djcapelis wrote: post #216
px43 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One nice thing about defcon is that people WILL get kicked out for taking pictures of others without permission.

Actually this is no longer true. Last year DefCon recently changed this policy because they kind of recognized the world has kind of changed and moved in a pretty fundamental way and maybe it wasn't the most valid thing anymore. There's still some sorts of "it's not super cool to take pictures of specific people" vibe going on, but it's definitely no longer a "no pictures allowed" type of situation.

The Chaos Communication Congress, about 30-50% of the space is no pictures.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#483

Post by RougeFemme »

ErrantX wrote: post #427
wpietri wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

> You should talk to more women about this. Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rhetoric. You seem a decent enough guy, if a little clueless, so I'll give you more advice if I may. Making lewd comments certainly might make others feel uncomfortable (male or female), but the fear factor comes from attitude and presence, not the words. For exa…

For some people, the fear factor factor comes from words alone. . .attitude and presence are not required. I'm a woman. Am I like that (feeling fearful from words alone)? No. Do I wish other people weren't like that? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that for some people it is just the words - right or wrong. And no, I wouldn't have reacted as she did - I would have ignored it or spoken directly to them.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#484

Post by vor_ »

shardling wrote: post #424
ahelwer wrote: post #76

Warning regarding the comments here: r/MensRights has recently taken an interest in HN regarding this case. A recent HN thread on this same topic is linked on the homepage[1], and there's been discussion of HN in particular here[2]. There's an agenda being pushed. Furthermore, the above PasteBin alleges the forking innuendo was pure fabrication in an attempt to paint Adria as a liar; the full story right from the sou…

The forking comment in the guys own words: "I would fork that guys repo". It might not have been explicitly meant in a sexual way, but it seems a little silly to not realise it would come off that way. And in fact, I'd say the only reason someone would find it funny would be the resonance it does have with sexual comments like "I'd tap that".

It's quite reasonable to assume that the comment was meant in exactly the way you're describing: a tongue-in-cheek parody of sexual terminology. All things considered, rather harmless and inoffensive in this day and age and really quite a silly thing to be offended over. The key point is that she made the same type of joke on Twitter.

Many men and women alike are struggling to understand how Adria came to the determination that what she heard meant that the two men would prevent future generations of women from loving to program, as she put it, and how it warranted a public shaming that had somewhat dire consequences for one of them.

One reason this is a trending topic on HN is that gender equality in tech has been an electrically charged subject the past few years. This has the potential to do so much damage to the movement; it's really quite tragic.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#485

Post by eropple »

jasonlotito wrote: post #393
josh-j wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.

So then what culture is she encouraging? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved Those are the two things she did. Call people out who broke a rule. She also went to PyCon organizers to resolve it. So, what culture is she encouraging, and why would we want to discourage it?

I am no fan of the behavior ascribed to these guys, but the PyCon code of conduct also says no "harassing photography or recording" and, in my book, her blasting a photograph to multiple thousands of followers is an intentional invocation of a shitstorm to attempt to harm them. PyCon also is on record as not being down with the "public shaming" thing, too; see their policies regarding it.

The two guys are unprofessional assholes. 100% agreed. But by my lights, she is too.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#486

Post by vilda »

hythloday wrote: post #179
moistgorilla wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who got harmed by this joke being told? No one, thus it's harmless.

"The results of two experiments supported the hypothesis that, for sexist men, exposure to sexist humour can promote the behavioural release of prejudice against women." http://psp.sagepub.com/content/34/2/159.abstract Women are tangibly harmed by sexist jokes.

"for sexist men, exposure to sexist humor can promote the behavioral release of prejudice against women"

Am I reading it right that this makes the study irrelevant? Isn't it like "for violent men, playing violent games makes them violent"?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#488

Post by anigbrowl »

mmanfrin wrote: post #44

I sure trust an anonymous pastebin from a throwaway account to make accusations about Adria's 'unfound accusations'. /s

Like many others, I formed a completely false impression from Adria's tweet, photo and blog post about who had made the offensive remarks. I thought it was the smiling gentleman looking straight into the lens of her camera (https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313417655879102464/...).

That turns out not to be the case (they guy who was fired clarified this on HN yesterday). I'm betting that at least some of Adria's ~9k Twitter followers still think that Beard Guy is the one at fault here, and she's made no effort to correct this impression, even though it's probably damaged his reputation somewhat.

So I don't find her version of events particularly trustworthy either.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#489

Post by joshontheweb »

jordanmessina wrote: post #229
joshontheweb wrote: post #122

Well, guess I'm never going to PyCon.

Just curious. Do you say that because of the behavior of the men making the comments, or because of Adria's reaction to those comments?

Because it looks like I would most assuredly get kicked out and perhaps publicly shamed over a stupid joke.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#490

Post by xymostech »

takluyver wrote: post #425
AnIrishDuck wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this point is key. There's plenty of blame on both sides here. Yes, these kinds of jokes are immature and this conduct was ill advised. That said, taking ambush pictures of nonconsenting parties and very publicly shaming them shouldn't be your go-to response. I'd say that response was completely disproportionate to the initial crime. Far better to throw an (in person) "come on guys, be professional" their way…

It appears that PyCon staff did handle the incident, and did so sensibly and discretely: http://pycon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappr... It's not clear whether that happened before or after the photo was posted. Edit: the code of conduct also says "Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."

She took the picture before she got the pycon people involved. You can tell because of the times on her tweets. The picture was tweeted at 10:32, and she started calling for the pycon staff at 10:34.
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