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Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

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Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#481

Post by DennisP »

otterley wrote: post #459
DennisP wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in fact, Apple in 2016 went to court rather than comply with the government's order to put a backdoor in the iPhone, and they argued their case in part on free speech grounds. Whether other companies do the same depends on what they consider the most profitable path, including legal fees and risk.

Don’t read too much into the Apple case. There was no precedent set by that. The FBI withdrew their demands after they found a different mechanism to obtain what they needed.

Of course there was no precedent set. They were using a precedent that had already been set. We'll never know how it would have turned out, but the previous comment implied that corporations always comply rather than going to court on the grounds that code is speech, so I posted a well-known counterexample.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#483

Post by dorkydev »

lrvick wrote: post #89

Linux distro founder here (stagex) I will never be compelled to implement this, and would never merge it. Every release requires quorum signatures by an international maintainer team, and the distro is designed to work offline-first, with some variants not even supporting network drivers in the kernel, so Illinois legislators can eat shit.

They'll just find a way to work around that then or blacklist and fine you

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#484

Post by shakes_mcjunkie »

an0malous wrote: post #344
slg wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do folks realize how many people would need to be a part of this conspiracy to get these laws passed at the state level? Maybe some people actually want to do good and are just misguided. And responding to those people as if they are evil government stooges certainly isn’t going to help them find the light.

On the other hand, I don't know a single person or have even heard of people or organizations who are advocating to pass these laws. They want the war in Iran to stop and for costs to go down. How is there so much political willpower for the former and almost none for the latter?

Meta is spending a lot of money on age verification lobbying

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/reddit-user-uncovers-beh...

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#485

Post by Happily2020 »

michaelt wrote: post #168
kej wrote: post #58

I feel like all of these laws are being designed backwards. Content providers, like MPAA films, should have to identify what sort of content they are providing. Then I can give my kids a device configured to allow some or all of that at my discretion. Requiring my kids' devices to advertise their age (or their age "bucket", as if that was a meaningful difference) to protect them is not doing me or my kids any favors.

The idea of a 'user agent' where the 'device owner' decides 'what should be displayed and how' is ancient history, grandad. Modern social media is delivered through 'apps' which are like web browsers, except without ad blockers or privacy settings, and with push notifications to make them more addictive, and they only show one website, and they're each 5x the size of a web browser for some reason.

This use case could also be covered with a similar technical solution. The device decides what features will be allowed to run.

If the political willpower for a better solution exists, the technical side is readily solved.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#486

Post by iamnothere »

lrvick wrote: post #469
hnlmorg wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get their intentions. We just disagree with the effectiveness of it. Posting rhetoric on an anonymous message board is not making a stand. If and when they’re doxxed by US media outlets, and slapped with life-changing court orders, with their work and families directly affected by their decisions; then they’re making a stand. But until that point, their words are as meaningless as their view of this law. Eg I can…

Who needs to dox me? I am a using my legal name on here and am super easy to look up. This law is stupid and I gleefully and openly mock it and those that think it is enforceable under my well known public identity. No one should take these unenforceable overreaches seriously. People will be jailed for not putting age verification code in software as soon as they will for piracy, or owning a 3D printer without gun-de…

Historically, mockery is also the best weapon against authoritarianism. It demonstrates that the state can’t control every aspect of citizens’ lives, especially their beliefs and attitudes. And if the state attempts to exert control, the mockery can be moved towards the subtle, forcing ever-more ridiculous actions like banning people from holding blank sheets of paper (China, UK). This demonstrates weakness, which encourages others to join.

In China at least, the blank paper protests were successful in making the government loosen up its extreme “zero-COVID” policies (welding shut the gates of apartment buildings, sealing off cities, etc).

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#487

Post by DoctorOetker »

kube-system wrote: post #374
DoctorOetker wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this answers the question: even if @Irvick stops distributing or participating in any way with this "stagex" distro, that "stagex" distro continues its life outside of the jurisdiction, at most you start treating it like contraband drugs within your jurisdiction. With LLM's anyone will be able to disengage such "default wars" in popular software, so there isn't really any border control when LLM's form a larg…

That’s always been the case for things distributed on the internet. It’s irrelevant in terms of evaluating one’s personal compliance with the law.

> It’s irrelevant in terms of evaluating one’s personal compliance with the law.

That's precisely what I discussed: the case where this person fully complies and ceases distribution (but the distro doesn't cease being distributed by others).

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#488

Post by otterley »

lrvick wrote: post #467
otterley wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop it. This is not something either of you are competent to provide legal advice about. Anyone concerned about this should consult a licensed attorney, not get advice from randos on HN.

I for one found two new cases to read about, and appreciate their comments. Anyone should be free to research, discuss, and try to understand the law for themselves. Lawyers do not own the law. But if actually pulled into a courtroom, sure, get a lawyer.

> Anyone should be free to research, discuss, and try to understand the law for themselves. Lawyers do not own the law.

This isn't mere research and discussion; it's suggesting an outcome (i.e., "you're safe[r]"). That crosses a line into advice.

> But if actually pulled into a courtroom, sure, get a lawyer.

By the time you get pulled into a courtroom, it is often far too late. The time to talk to an attorney is well before that, when you’re contemplating action. That is the main point I’ve been trying to make, and it seems you just don’t want to pay heed.

Yes, you've said multiple times that you're not afraid of the consequences, but you'll forgive me if I don't believe you. History is replete with people who regretted their actions once prosecutorial actions were commenced and punishments meted out. Defending oneself is expensive, and convictions impact not just the guilty but also their career and family.

Ultimately, it's your life and you have to live with the decisions you make. (And, possibly, your family, should you have one.) Your bluster and actions may not harm you in this specific instance because you’re involved with a project too small to attract a prosecutor’s attention, but it doesn’t make my caution any less valid. It may not persuade you, personally, but hopefully others who read this will get the message.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#489

Post by voakbasda »

LukeShu wrote: post #309
miohtama wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK they were implemented by Microsoft staff.

It was not. It was implemented by Dylan Taylor, an outside contributor who works at a fintech company in North Carolina, and has made it his hobby to submit PRs implementing age verification to all kinds of projects. The systemd maintainer who clicked "merge" (Luca Boccassi) does work at Microsoft.

I would love to understand his motives, because my first impression is not a positive one. This is not freedom-loving behavior of a patriotic US citizen.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#490

Post by voakbasda »

lrvick wrote: post #464
kube-system wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think they’re going to spend any resources on going after you because: * your project might not even qualify under the text of the law * even if it did, the number of children using it to access social media is likely zero

Oh, we will be supporting desktop/ubuntu style use cases soon. Position will remain the same though. And, agreed, they will still ignore us. But sick of seeing bigger projects cave to this nonsense. But, none of this was about protecting kids. It never was.

They will ignore you right up until precedents are establish for a process to effectively prosecute any holdouts. Sure, first they will come for bigger fish, but then they will come for you.
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