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“Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

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Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#481

Post by apothegm »

qurren wrote: post #305
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would add this is not exclusive to large corporations either. My smaller employer is also struggling hard because leadership simply cannot prioritize. Everything is either not being worked on or is the highest priority which in practice just means nothing is the priority, and no matter what myself and my team work on always seems to be the wrong thing. It's absolutely devastating to team morale. We never feel like we…

I'm already unfazed at that part and don't care. What devastated me this week is that I was slogging so hard for the past several months trying to deliver on what I was asked to deliver on, only took 1 week of PTO out of the 4 weeks I have saved up, spent nights and weekends trying to honestly solve multiple high priority yet HARD problems that 500 other engineers in the company couldn't solve, I'm making good progre…

I hope you’re already looking for a different job. Because it’s never worthwhile in the long run to sacrifice your own mental or physical health for someone else’s career prospects or profit.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#482

Post by bramadityaw »

zero_shift wrote: post #464
bramadityaw wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it's better to be a goat than a cow. That's the first time I've heard that idiom. What does it mean?

I made it up on the hoof (pun intended) Cows are the most common animal on the farm, and overall they produce the most value. But they are very replaceable. When times are bad, you slaughter them. Cows are like your rank-and-file application developers: you scale them up and down with the times. Goats are more niche. You don't have many of them on your farm. But they solve important problems (eating weeds), and they…

permission to steal this idiom :) hope it catches on.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#483

Post by satvikpendem »

pnt12 wrote: post #461
satvikpendem wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's true. In a world where code is commoditized, a PM who knows exactly what the customers' needs are will be much more successful than an engineer who does not. Not sure what is controversial about that.

Why not have the customer talk to an llm and iterate on the plan? Many customers will appreciate the 30m back and forth replacing the multiple hour meetings. People are subtracting a lot of hard parts from their thinking, and think it's simpler than it is. What happens when the test suite isn't testing the real thing? The ci/cd doesn't even start? There is a bug requiring a hot fix ASAP? The code is growing into a na…

> Why not have the customer talk to an llm and iterate on the plan?

They already do that, hence the SaaSpocalypse. The hope for these AI companies is that the models get better than engineers such that the answer to all your questions is that the AI will handle it.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#484

Post by satvikpendem »

tombert wrote: post #422
satvikpendem wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when exactly did Windows 11 release?

Just because some of Windows 11 was released before Claude Code doesn’t mean that the really shitty stuff from the last year wasn’t vibe-coded garbage.

They didn't need AI to write slop is my point.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#486

Post by dofm »

necovek wrote: post #447
dofm wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any coder with experience or ability imagines a world where software architects are regulated the way real architects are, and acts accordingly. I mean, this was drilled into me at uni — that software was not likely to escape regulation forever and that you can't know with certainty how all the code you're writing will be used when you're not observing the use. For example, under what constraint regime should the cal…

In regards to (software) architects being regulated, the problem was always going to be that someone can jump in and build a "skyscraper" in their room/garage — and they have! I honestly have failed to see the value of anyone wearing an official "Software Architect" hat in my 20 years of being in or leading high performing software development teams: yes, we built and maintained complex systems with multi-team depend…

When I said it was showing my age, this is because I went to uni nearly 35 years ago. Back then, well pre-web, at a university that turned out chartered engineers who were on many of the same modules as we were, there was a consensus building that some areas of technology would be regulated to require chartered engineers. I was on an accredited degree course from the professional body who seemed sure, any time now, that they would be the one handing out the chartered degrees (though as it turns out I never actually achieved accreditation due to a failure of communication!)

I have nevertheless always written code on the basis that it might one day encounter proper scrutiny.

Ultimately in the parallel universe where chartered software engineers became the norm, the scenarios you are talking about would be different, for structural reasons.

It's never going to happen in this universe.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#487

Post by blini-kot »

Isn't an insult really, just an argument about terms.

"Code was never the hard part" in my opinion is more about the actual writing and making it compile and fit together. The hard part is one level above: figuring what to write, not only on the architectural level, but also implicitly during the writing itself. LLMs tackle a part of it, but not the whole problem, thus "the code was never the hard part" is about "how to make the already-present plan compile", not "knowing the system underneath is not hard actually"

compare with something automotive: the process for changing an intake gasket and installing a turbo is roughly the same, but if you screw up the compression on your engine in the second case, you ruin everything - saying "installing was never the hard part" means that installation is the final step, however someone still might be upset, because he or she implicitly thinks "installing" means more than just the physical process of bolting the intake on.

Is it an insult to all mechanics to say that "installing stuff was never the hard part"? No, because context here naturally points to a narrow definition which excludes cases requiring engineering, i.e. adding a part in a tight space, drilling the block to make a new auxilliary installed, machining a bracket etc

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#488

Post by unfitted2545 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #167
unfitted2545 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11241-from_managerial_feudalism_... Timestamp is: 36:42-39:55 I believe Graeber perfectly predicts the problems, in 2019, with vibe coding creating immediate "value" from production, but failing to produce true value through maintaining the system (like one continually washes a cup to give it value over time).

> (like one continually washes a cup to give it value over time). But it doesn't give value, it prevents value loss . I don't know why people are telling themselves maintenance work is virtuous. It's waste. It's necessary waste, and doing the work may be virtuous, but the work itself is pure waste. Fighting entropy. EDIT: I wish we talked more about the need for low-maintenance patterns and products. In this industry…

> the work itself is pure waste. Fighting entropy.

Would you not say that this is essentially labour holding up the value?

And I agree about low maintenance products being necessary, the example of the static site is good because the files could be described as becoming a stateless transformation of data!

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#490

Post by amanaplanacanal »

kcexn wrote: post #465
pjmlp wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

Before I retired (in the US) the organization I worked for was heavily civil engineering oriented, and they were pretty insistent that the computer folks not call themselves engineers. The state licensing board was pretty insistent too.
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