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If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

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Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#481

Post by anthuswilliams »

bobsomers wrote: post #465
anthuswilliams wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been championing this mindset since well before LLMs. It is an admittedly controversial opinion, but one I hold strongly. Code reviews are a productivity tax. No truly effective team would rely on them. The fact that so many software teams view them as indispensable just shows how few effective software teams there are in our industry. They are akin to a quality check step in manufacturing. Part of what Deming…

> owned by all participants How does this work in practice? In my experience, any metrics owned by a group inevitably languish and are largely ignored. Anything you want to improve needs a DRI.

You still have a DRI. In factories this would be a foreman; in software teams this could be a team lead or product owner or whatever. Their job is to apply the statistical process controls and the gemba walk, to help the team see the problems and develop the causal mental model for why the problems happen. They hold the team responsible, together, for combatting the issues so uncovered. They know who is not pulling their weight.

Of course, to do that, a business, and in turn the DRI, would have to empower the team to act in its business's best interest and stop micromanaging them.

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#482

Post by paulddraper »

Archer6621 wrote: post #358
gwd wrote: post #335

"Don't expend more effort than they are" has actually long been a good principle to have internalized. Someone done only cursory research before asking a question on a mailing list? Give a cursory answer. Someone obviously spent hours trying to figure things out on their own? Give them a good chunk of your time. Someone on HN responding to you with single-sentence responses? Either don't respond, or respond in kind.…

These kinds of principles are sensible at their core, and I am a big proponent of the mindset, but the main problem as a sibling comment pointed out in a way is that this assumes that everyone is striving for an honest and accurate correlation between display of effort and value, and that everyone is looking deep enough into and behind that display to recognize the true value behind it. But actual effort, let alone v…

Counterpoint: I know it when I see it.

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#484

Post by liveoneggs »

maccard wrote: post #468
dormento wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why are you such a drag on team morale?", "why are you invalidating your colleagues learning experiences?" "Next time you do this, HR will have to step in" etc etc. There's no justice in this world.

I’d you’re not willing to stand your ground and have a direct conversation with your co worker then there’s no solution to it.

for me it's actually my boss

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#485

Post by maccard »

liveoneggs wrote: post #484
maccard wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d you’re not willing to stand your ground and have a direct conversation with your co worker then there’s no solution to it.

for me it's actually my boss

Ah. Well that’s a problem. My advise is either manage up, accept fate or move team

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#486

Post by esperent »

Zambyte wrote: post #364
bluGill wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the high school project has been improved by many engineers over a few years it likely is complex enough that a senior engineer cannot rewrite it for a reasonable cost. It isn't clear if next years models will be enough better that they can rewrite it for a reasonable cost. If they are they can probably extract the requirements and special cases from the code.

Following my analogy, the high school project would have been continuously extended by high schoolers passing the project on from class to class each year, rather than "improved by many engineers". The "engineers" (future models) don't get the project until currently models have had their way for a while. I think that makes the "rewrite from scratch" plan a whole lot more compelling.

It's a bad analogy. Say what you will about the strengths and weaknesses of current LLMs but there's no "high-schoolers" (outside of rare prodigies) who can write code at the level of a frontier LLM.

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#487

Post by madaxe_again »

boomlinde wrote: post #453
madaxe_again wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends. In many cases, you absolutely shouldn’t. In some however, you should. For instance, yesterday I sent a lengthy email in a language I barely speak threatening legal action against a business. I had an LLM translate/write it as it’s a language Google translate makes a mess of, every time. So in that case, you’d be advised to read it lest you end up in court.

Did you bother to read the resulting translation?

Yup, translated it back through Google and double checked it wasn’t giving me horseshit.

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#488

Post by Zambyte »

esperent wrote: post #486
Zambyte wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following my analogy, the high school project would have been continuously extended by high schoolers passing the project on from class to class each year, rather than "improved by many engineers". The "engineers" (future models) don't get the project until currently models have had their way for a while. I think that makes the "rewrite from scratch" plan a whole lot more compelling.

It's a bad analogy. Say what you will about the strengths and weaknesses of current LLMs but there's no "high-schoolers" (outside of rare prodigies) who can write code at the level of a frontier LLM.

High schoolers are to senior software engineers as current models are to future models. Is that really so hard to follow?

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#489

Post by bandrami »

inigyou wrote: post #386
nkrisc wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's why the context of the question is important. It's not clear from your comment, but I'd give a different answer if the question was strictly academic in nature (reinventing the wheel) or focused on practical work realities (use a library).

Even using a library isn't that practical. It may be the zeitgeist in JavaScript but that doesn't mean it's actually a good idea. Nobody remembers left-pad? If you're writing Java or Python then checking if your date class can already do it is a good idea.

I've managed to work in tech for 30 years without ever significantly coming into contact with javascript professionally. I hire Ada and C programmers for a stodgy defense contractor where we have to wear ties and it takes 6 months to get a new library approved; unicorns don't really thrive in this environment (or in Fairfax County in general).

Re: If you are asking for human attention, demonstrate human effort

#490

Post by marshalhq »

niuzeta wrote: post #34

A very prolific coworker who fully embraced claude has inflicted the team with a flood of AI-generated PRs. About six months later, it is his frequent bemoaning at the standup that their PR don't get reviewed, languishing in inattention. I don't think anyone - including myself - _intentionally_ avoid his PRs. It's just that he doesn't make it easy for the team to look at. This single headline perfectly captures what…

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