I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#481

Post by socalgal2 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:39 PM UTC

g3f32r wrote: post #353

zipy124 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly quoted at the start of the article? "Problem-based learning tends to do worse than traditional schooling in medical education. An influential meta-analysis by Albanese and Mitchell, for instance, found that students required more time studying, had worse exam scores and ordered more unnecessary tests compared to traditionally taught students. " Problem-based learning is exactly the "figure it out" meth…

> students required more time studying, had worse exam scores and ordered more unnecessary tests compared to traditionally taught students. While I didn't do any additional looking into it -- this is often my biggest gripe. Is the _goal_ to have better exam scores and require less time studying or is the goal to be a better problem-solver holistically? When faced with a novel problem that neither the problem-based le…

I think one claim is that the pile of rote memorized info is a required basis for novel solutions.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#482

Post by teabee89 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:42 PM UTC

Derek Muller from the Veritasium channel gave a great (and funny) talk[1] about how AI will not revolutionize education and I'll quote my favorite part: "The world is full of heavy objects; yet not everyone is ripped". Meaning that what fails with AI in education is also what fails in education without AI: lack of motivation that a good coach could provide. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xS68sl2D70

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#483

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:43 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #391

falkensmaize wrote: post #127

If your goal is high academic achievement, the only real answer is a stable home life, parent-enforced discipline and high parental expectations (note I said expectations not involvement - highly “involved” parents can be worse than the neglectful ones). That’s it. That’s the big secret. Show me a school full of tired/neglected/hungry/unruly students and I’ll show you a school full of students that are going to be al…

This should be the top comment. It makes me _irate_ when the solution is "just throw more money at the problem, that will fix education!" Like, irrationally mad. It is lazy. It is soulless. It is callous. It is arrogant. It is detached from reality. "Education will fix the problems in schools!" is circular logic. My pet theory, and this will bet destroyed here, is that we should have developed birth control for males…

Some problems suffer negative economies of scale and simply cant be outsourced.

There is not enough money in the economy to pay for all the domestic work that productive people do for themselves.

Parenting is a good example of this.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#484

Post by bccdee » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:47 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #431

bccdee wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not even mathematically possible to train 100 percent of teachers to be in the top 10 percent of teachers …yes, but it's totally possible to (by, say, 2036) train 100% of teachers to perform at a 90th percentile as compared to teachers from 2026. That's how improvement works, which is what people are describing here. > No student nor teacher cares about be trained to some objective standard of competence What…

> it's totally possible to (by, say, 2036) train 100% of teachers to perform at a 90th percentile as compared to teachers from 2026. That's how improvement works, which is what people are describing here. I doubt you can pull this off unless you’re willing (and able) to fire at least 25% of teachers who appear not willing (and under strong unions cannot be required) to outperform the current 90th percentile teacher.…

Oh yeah I mean theoretically possible, not practical, haha.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#485

Post by b33j0r » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:49 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

I had the opposite experience. I saw college kids who didn’t know where the F5 key was on the first day write smart matlab and python programs by the midterms.

I don’t think I’m exceptional at all. I was always behind and that probably reflected pretty poorly on me. But all it took to teach was preparing interesting examples and then spending time with subgroups and individuals.

I bet a lot of people think I’m catastrophically wrong, probably just got lucky.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#486

Post by somenameforme » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:55 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #412

somenameforme wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think? For an example of something in support of my argument, China (and a number of other East Asian countries) use a very hardcore memorization + training routine. And they are having literally the best educational outcomes in the world from it, but such a thing would almost certainly fail catastrophically in a contemporary American classroom.

> such a thing would almost certainly fail catastrophically in a contemporary American classroom. It definitely would fail but isn't it an order of magnitude more likely that's due to the parents, teachers' unions, and other factors rather than American students are neurologically different than Chinese students and therefore learn differently? If they do have much better outcomes (I have no idea if this is the case…

Yeah, here [1] are the PISA outcomes. PISA is an international test that's generally the gold standard for comparison of educational outcomes on an international level. [1] Over the last testing year China was #2, the test prior #1. Singapore was #1 in the most recent period, and is around 75% ethnic Chinese.

Whether the differences are genetic or cultural is interesting but doesn't really matter. The reality is that they exist and are relatively immutable. For a very basic example, in China failing students fail. In American schools, failing students tend to be passed along. And such things are difficult to change, even if you could prove beyond any doubt that doing so would yield better outcomes for everybody.

[1] - https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scor...

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#487

Post by beej71 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:55 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #70

I'm not the first person to state this, but it bears repeating: nearly everyone thinks that they know the right way to teach, and most people don't. I'm not exempting myself from this. I was an adjunct lecturer for two semesters. I did have some fun with it, but it was way harder than I thought it would be, and I think that university is probably considerably easier than elementary or high school. I had students that…

After 20 industry years, I've been teaching CS for the last 7. I sincerely hope that I figure it out before I retire. :) Doing this job effectively is more challenging than anything I've done in my career. I've read a lot about teaching, and it's amazing how much of it doesn't resonate for me. What has been the absolute best is sitting in on other instructors' classes and learning from them. And being completely flexible in how I teach--there really is no single solution to everything. "Be like water".

As for the students who don't apply themselves, I know exactly who you are talking about, of course. And often they're among the most capable people in the class. There's also no single thing that works here. But I've had some success with asking them point-blank, "What's your plan for passing this class?" But that doesn't work with everyone.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#488

Post by aidenn0 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:58 PM UTC

hylaride wrote: post #474

SoftTalker wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my sons is one of those. He's smart, tends to creative pursuits, and while he will research and learn on his own about stuff he's interested in, put him in a classroom setting, for something he doesn't really care about, and he just won't do the work.

I was one of those kids. Did well in class, participated, and my grades trended downwards as the school year went on. A lot of it was undiagnosed ADHD, which didn't work well with the repetitive nature of much public schooling. OK, let's do polynomials. Start with two terms...then three...then four...and on and on. I lost interest after three. Of course, then I didn't study or practice and did poorly on tests. I gras…

I was also one of those kids.

Some of it was diagnosed ADHD (I was on Ritalin; I couldn't tell the difference, but my mom said it was huge; on almost every day I forgot to take it she would get a call from the school about my behavior), but much of it is something I still can't explain to this day.

I was a voracious reader, but if the book was assigned for school, I wouldn't read it.

Science was usually my best subject, but my personality clashed with my 5th grade teacher, so I spent one quarter of 5th grade just not doing it at all. As in when it was time for science, I read a book I had brought from home instead of participating. I did absolutely no work. I didn't even turn in the homework and I handed in blank pages for the in-class work. I received a D (the lowest passing grade) for that quarter, which rather confused me.

For 7th grade, I tested into Algebra, but at the time a teacher recommendation was also needed, and my 6th grade teacher declined to do so. I got a D in pre-algebra, with a B+ test-average being pulled down by my homework (or lack of it). I did however teach myself lock raking with a 5-pin lock that was on the file-cabinet in the back of the class.

I had the flu when I took the SATs so got what was (for me) a poor score. My guidance counselor told me that there was no need to retake, as no schools that wanted a higher SAT would take me with my GPA as low as it was.

It took me 11 semesters and two summer sessions to finish college with a 2.2 GPA.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#489

Post by beej71 » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 5:59 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #422

whiplash451 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a large extent, the onus is on the teacher to generate interest. Most teaching until uni is mostly forced upon students.

I'd argue honestly until graduate school too. Undergrad still has a lot of required courses that aren't directly related to your major, and it can be draining. I'm not saying this is a "bad" thing, having a well rounded education is important, but it's still a lot of stuff that a lot of students don't want to do. Graduate school is more fun, and in some senses kind of easier (for want of a better word). Sure, the wor…

> Undergrad still has a lot of required courses that aren't directly related to your major, and it can be draining.

This is why I LOVED getting my MS. Just computer science all the time! Heaven! None of those pesky, worthless general ed classes!

I was just a dumb college kid. I'm convinced I'd have done better in life overall if I'd taken those GE courses seriously and made the effort to be a more well-rounded individual. How many chances do you get where your whole job is just learning shit? Youth is wasted on the young, as they say.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#490

Post by HappMacDonald » Fri, Jun 05, 2026, 6:03 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #391

falkensmaize wrote: post #127

If your goal is high academic achievement, the only real answer is a stable home life, parent-enforced discipline and high parental expectations (note I said expectations not involvement - highly “involved” parents can be worse than the neglectful ones). That’s it. That’s the big secret. Show me a school full of tired/neglected/hungry/unruly students and I’ll show you a school full of students that are going to be al…

This should be the top comment. It makes me _irate_ when the solution is "just throw more money at the problem, that will fix education!" Like, irrationally mad. It is lazy. It is soulless. It is callous. It is arrogant. It is detached from reality. "Education will fix the problems in schools!" is circular logic. My pet theory, and this will bet destroyed here, is that we should have developed birth control for males…

Well I for one am always in favor of arbitrary humans having better ways to voluntarily attenuate their own fertility, full stop.

We may have a depopulation shock problem on our hands at the moment, but trying to encourage more accidental births isn't the way to solve that: we need to increase social and financial incentives for forming families and pull away as many of the social and financial barriers thereupon that we can. Not to increase population but to better slow the free-fall of it decreasing so badly that it upsets the actuarial tables.

While I have no way to assess whether better male birth control options would directly positively impact education in particular, I see zero ways it could negatively impact it.