Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're taking the metaphor much too seriously. It was only an example to illustrate that human rights don't automatically apply to machines. Let's not read too much into it.
You made a claim and used a metaphor to demonstrate that claim. I asked a very simple question about the bounds of the metaphor and thus the claim. You are dodging answering the questions which mean that you cannot defend the logic of your claim. Thus you have forfeited that your claim is valid and 'human rights don't automatically apply to machines' has not been illustrated.
Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
481–490 of 570 posts
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#482Earlier quoted context omitted.
We're moving into the 'industrial age of software'. You exact issue, of bespoke, well thought out and well-crafted code is one that craftsmen felt at the beginning of the industrial age. Now, parts are designed and churned out by machines that no one sees or cares about (generally speaking). This is where we are going with software, and production at a truly industrial scale has its place. And so does well-crafted be…
It is not even about quality. In fact with an LLM following my orders I can create higher quality code than I ever did before. I always was operating within a budget whether it was defined by the # of hours my customers were willing to pay for, or the # of hours I was personally willing to invest in a side project. This budget manifested in the form of cut features, limited test coverage, limited documentation, and s…
Maybe this is me just being angry at the new world that's being created, but the beauty of the open source ecosystem was humans giving away things they found useful in the hope that other humans could find them useful too. Having a machine take all of that and regurgitate it somewhere else without that connection (for profit, no less) feels like a betrayal of that open source ethos.
Now in the back of my mind I worry that everything I open source will be scooped up by corporations to make them more rich and more powerful, so I end up not publishing anything (not that it was of any value). I suspect I'm not alone in feeling that way.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#483Earlier quoted context omitted.
You made a claim and used a metaphor to demonstrate that claim. I asked a very simple question about the bounds of the metaphor and thus the claim. You are dodging answering the questions which mean that you cannot defend the logic of your claim. Thus you have forfeited that your claim is valid and 'human rights don't automatically apply to machines' has not been illustrated.
Fortunately I don't care whether you're convinced. I doubt our discussion here will change policy in any way.
Because the alternative would be to just railroad people who don't agree, and even when it does work in one's favor the pendulum tends to swing back hard in response.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#484I find it distasteful and disturbing that copyright infringement by the people training the LLM in violation of a license is considered contamination by the licensed code. It’s not contamination. The code didn’t seep into your codebase. If the LLM was trained in such a way that portions of code long enough to be protectable then the license was violated by humans. The liability for the problem doesn’t lie on the shou…
> training the LLM in violation of a license Bartz v. Anthropic found that this is fair use, so the license doesn't play into it.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#485I find it distasteful and disturbing that copyright infringement by the people training the LLM in violation of a license is considered contamination by the licensed code. It’s not contamination. The code didn’t seep into your codebase. If the LLM was trained in such a way that portions of code long enough to be protectable then the license was violated by humans. The liability for the problem doesn’t lie on the shou…
> training the LLM in violation of a license Bartz v. Anthropic found that this is fair use, so the license doesn't play into it.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#486Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder how much of linux and *BSD is in the windows kernel.
Is there really likely to be any? The design is very different isn't it? Ghidra with llm plugins is likely at a place a determined person could find out.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#487Earlier quoted context omitted.
Learning, probably not. Copy/pasting at scale , yes
It is learning though. It’s not just copying the code. Code gets turned into tokens and then it learns the next most likely token. The issue that I see most people talk about it the scale at which is learnt. A human will learn from other people’s code but not from every persons code.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#488Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think that human directing the agent owns copyright for any legal reason? The case Community for Creative Non Violence Vs Reid ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_for_Creative_Non-Vio... ) solidifies a supreme court opinion that someone contracting a work and directing an author does not grant authorship to the commissioner of the work, it grants authorship to the person actually doing the work. The auth…
It depends on what level of creative control you had over the code. Code is protected by copyright as a literary work. The method is not protected by copyright, that would be the domain of patents. What's protected are the words. If you say "Claude, build me a website about X" then you do not have any creative control over the literary work Claude is producing. You just told a machine to write it for you. Nor, like a…
There problem is the LLM is still making assumptions on that line of code and thus it's still the main author (based on existing case law and the copyright office's opinion currently).
The markdown case is definitely more like the case I cited where the supreme court decided that specficiations and back and forth do not mean it's a deritive work and thus the actual implementor is the author, not the spec writer.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#489Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think that human directing the agent owns copyright for any legal reason? The case Community for Creative Non Violence Vs Reid ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_for_Creative_Non-Vio... ) solidifies a supreme court opinion that someone contracting a work and directing an author does not grant authorship to the commissioner of the work, it grants authorship to the person actually doing the work. The auth…
> only humans can be granted copyright. No, a copyright application can be filed with a corporation listed as the author. Watch for the copyright notice at the end of the next major movie you see.
The employees and contractors are the authors, and because of the contract they sign they assign copyright to the corporation. Corporations, as a collection of humans are allowed to have authorship.
LLMs are not companies and they are not humans in any way shape or form, and thus cannot get copyright nor grant copyright to a third party.
Re: Who owns the code Claude Code wrote?
#490Earlier quoted context omitted.
but the ability for the agent to build it in the first place is based off of stolen IP. I honestly don't understand why the attitude that underlies this is so prevalent. When I write code, what I write and how I write it is informed by having read countless source code files over my education and my career. Just as I ingest all that experience to fine-tune how my later code is written, so does the LLM from the code i…
Humans should have more legal privileges than machines, just as individuals should have more legal privileges than corporations. It's really as simple as that. I don't want to gripe around making up justifications, that's how the law should be and if it turns out not to be that, I'm going to be nettled. I live in the UK, and most US law is based upon English common law, it's not some immutable code given to us from a…
The UK works under the "sweat of the brow" doctrine for copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow
Under a "sweat of the brow" doctrine, the creator of a work, even if it is completely unoriginal, is entitled to have that effort and expense protected; no one else may use such a work without permission, but must instead recreate the work by independent research or effort. The classic example is a telephone directory. In a "sweat of the brow" jurisdiction, such a directory may not be copied, but instead a competitor must independently collect the information to issue a competing directory. The same rule generally applies to databases and lists of facts.
In the US, it is a minimal threshold of human originality and Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Co. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc._v._Ru.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_St...The inclusion of "human" is important there. https://copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-auth... - the human authorship is mentioned several times.
306 The Human Authorship Requirement
The U.S. Copyright Office will register an original work of authorship, provided that the work was created by a human being. The copyright law only protects “the fruits of intellectual labor” that “are founded in the creative powers of the mind.” Trade-Mark Cases, 100 U.S. 82, 94 (1879). Because copyright law is limited to “original intellectual conceptions of the author,” the Office will refuse to register a claim if it determines that a human being did not create the work. Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co. v. Sarony, 111 U.S. 53, 58 (1884). For representative examples of works that do not satisfy this requirement, see Section 313.2 below.
313.2 Works That Lack Human Authorship
As discussed in Section 306, the Copyright Act protects “original works of authorship.” 17 U.S.C. § 102(a) (emphasis added). To qualify as a work of “authorship” a work must be created by a human being. See Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co., 111 U.S. at 58. Works that do not satisfy this requirement are not copyrightable.
...
Similarly, the Office will not register works produced by a machine or mere mechanical process that operates randomly or automatically without any creative input or intervention from a human author. The crucial question is “whether the ‘work’ is basically one of human authorship, with the computer [or other device] merely being an assisting instrument, or whether the traditional elements of authorship in the work (literary, artistic, or musical expression or elements of selection, arrangement, etc.) were actually conceived and executed not by man but by a machine.”
The question is, does Claude Code fall into that category of authorship without creative input or intervention from a human author?The prompts may be copyrightable... but the output if you don't go in and fix it up and provide that minimal amount of human originality to it? That appears to still be an open question of law in the United States.