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The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

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481–490 of 668 posts

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#481

Contrarian just for the sake of it. Get on board or stay behind. Whatever good or bad AI brings to the table, it's here to stay. The cat's out of the bag. Might as well enjoy it. Evolution will not stay on your whimsical made-up reality. It will run you over.

Do you have any more platitudes to add so I can fill my dismissive HN comment bingo card?

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#482
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. The first 10 rungs of the ladder will be removed, but we still expect you to be able to get to the roof. The AI won't get you there and you won't have the knowledge you'd normally gain on those first 10 rungs to help you move past #10.

People would have said the same about graphing calculators or calculators before that. Socrates said the same thing about the written word. The determining factor is always "did I come up with this tool". Somehow, subsequent generations always manage to find their own competencies (which, to be fair, may be different). This isn't guaranteed to play out, but it should be the default expectation until we actually see g…

When doing college we can only start using those tools when we understand the principles behind them.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If results are what matters, why is popular software so buggy and lacking in features?

Because people will pay for crap. As long as that’s the case, those that create crap will thrive. Pretty basic, and long predates LLMs.

People don't really have a choice. There is no free market and the incumbents are abusing their monopolists positions to further their wealth at the expense of the nation (and planet TBH).

Acting like workers have a meaningful choice where their director had to spend $30million on SalesForce licenses when people had no say in the matter just further proves that the last frontier for democracy will be in the private sector where we can liberate the workers against their tyrants and actually run the companies effectively rather than relying on the government to kneecap their competitors or straight up ignoring the law to the detriment of society + the planet.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI assisted coding makes you dumber full stop. It's obvious as soon as you try it for the first time. Need a regex? No need to engage your brain. AI will do that for you. Is what it produced correct? Well who knows? I didn't actually think about it. As current gen seniors brains atrophy over the next few years the scarier thing is that juniors won't even be learning the fundamentals because it is too easy to let AI h…

Strongly disagree. If the complexity of your work it the software development itself, then it means that your work is not very complex to begin with. It has always been extremely annoying to fight with people who mistake the ability of building or engaging with complicated systems (like your regex) with competency. I work in building AI for a very complex application, and I used to be in the top 0.1% of Python progra…

What was the metric?

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would bob only have time to promote llms? Strange strawman. Many uni courses always had a level of you get out what you put in, it’s the same with LLMs.

Why would the university look at the amount of work a student get done, conclude the student can get 12x done because they can do a years work in a month and not make the student do 12x more work? And it’s not strictly speaking university we’re talking about. The way we understand work is going to fundamentally change. And we’re not going to value the people who use LLMs to get 1x done. But yes, university was always…

Honestly I’m not going to review the thread to see if we got our wires crossed at some point, but I agree with your last comment!

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#486

> Schwartz's experiment is the most revealing, and not for the reason he thinks. What he demonstrated is that Claude can, with detailed supervision, produce a technically rigorous physics paper. What he actually demonstrated, if you read carefully, is that the supervision is the physics. Claude produced a complete first draft in three days. It looked professional. The equations seemed right. The plots matched expecta…

> the paradox is, the LLMs are only useful† if you're Schwartz, and you can't become Schwartz by using LLMs. That you can't "become Schwartz" by using LLMs is an unproven assumption. Actually, it's a contradiction in the logic of the essay: if Bob managed to produce a valid output by using an LLM at all , then it means that he must have acquired precisely that supervision ability that the essay claims to be necessary…

It doesn't contradict the logic of the essay.

There are flowers that look & smell like female wasps well enough to fool male wasps into "mating" with them. But they don't fly off and lay wasp eggs afterwards.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#487
Education lost the plot years ago. AI is a kind of final nail in that coffin. While we may lament the ravages of AI, I expect there is a kind of providential silver lining in that it may cleanse the rot plaguing education. Just as postermodernism - itself full of errors - is like an enema that is clearing out the disease of modernism and will flush itself out in the process, so, too, AI may be just the purgative we need to force us back to a norm more fittingly called “education”.

One of the marks of an educated person is the ability to dispassionately think from first principles. It is not a sufficient criterion, but it is a necessary one. In this case, the basic questions we must ask are: what is education, and what is education for?

An instrumentalist view of education, the one that has claimed the soul of the modern university and primary education , tells us that education is about preparing for a career - preparing to be an economic actor - and about the effect you can have. In short, it is about practical power and economic utility.

Now, the power to be able to do good things, to be practically able, is a good thing as such, and indeed one does acquire facility during one’s education. (And I would argue schooling today isn’t great at practicality either.) But the practical, unlike the theoretical, is always about something else. It is never for its own sake. What this means is that there must be a terminus. You cannot have an infinite regress of practical ends, because the justification for any practical end is not found in itself. And if the primary proximate end of education is the career, then what distinguishes education from training? Nothing. What’s more, if you then ask what the purpose of a career is, you find it is about consumption. So education today is about enabling people to be consumers. You wish to be effective so you can be payed more so you can buy more crap. Pure nihilism.

True education is best captured by the classical liberal arts, which is to say the free arts. Human beings are intellectual and moral creatures. The purpose of education is to free a person to be more human, to free them to be able to reason effectively and competently for the sake of wisdom and for the sake of living wisely. In other words, it is about becoming what you ought to become as a human being in the most definitive sense.

What good does AI do you if you haven’t become a better version of yourself in the process? So AI writes a paper for you. So what? The purpose of the paper is not the paper, but the knowledge, understanding, and insight that results from writing it.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly I don’t see how our current social paradigm works for this. There is no history of any sort of long planning like this or long term loyalty (either direction) with employees and employers for this sort of journeyman guild style training. AI execs are basically racing, hoping we won’t need a Schwartz before they are all gone. But what incentives are in place to high a college grad, have them work without llms fo…

Then the social paradigm needs to change. Is everyone just going to roll over and die while AI destroys academia (and possibly a lot more)? Last September, Tyler Austin Harper published a piece for The Atlantic on how he thinks colleges should respond to AI. What he proposes is radical —but, if you've concluded that AI really is going to destroy everything these institutions stand for, I think you have to at least co…

> Then the social paradigm needs to change. Is everyone just going to roll over and die while AI destroys academia (and possibly a lot more)?

My 40-some-odd years on this planet tells me the answer is yes.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#489
post #292

If this article was written a year ago, I would have agreed. But knowing what I know today, I highly doubt that the outcomes of LLM/non-LLM users will be anywhere close to similar. LLMs are exceptionally good at building prototypes. If the professor needs a month, Bob will be done with the basic prototype of that paper by lunch on the same day, and try out dozens of hypotheses by the end of the day. He will not be ch…

Bob will never figure out there is an error in his paper. If someone tells him, the LLM will have trouble to figure it out as well, remember the LLM inserted the error to make it "look right". Your perspective is cut off. In the real world Bob is supposed to produce outcomes that work. If he moves on into the industry and keeps producing hallucinated, skewed, manipulated nonsense, then he will fall flat instantly. If…

That's an odd opinion to hold. That's not what real world usage shows is happening.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#490

I don’t have kids, but suggested something years ago to my siblings when they started confronting similar issues: we should do a version of “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” for personal computers. Kids should start off with Commodore 64s, then get late 80’s or early 90’s Mac’s, then Windows 95, Debian and internet access (but only html). Finally, when they’re 18, be allowed an iPhone, Android and modern computing.…

I've been doing this with my kids, at least to some extent. It offers first rung on a ladder to understanding that complex things can be understood as cooperation among simpler parts. We'll see how it works out but so far it seems to be working.

It's actually great since a lot of older technology is cheap and still readily available. My little ones love listening to old records, control the playback speed and hear the music go up in pitch if the RPMs are set too high. We look at the tracks on the vinyl under a microscope at talk about how the music is written on it that way. VHS an audio cassettes offer their own talking points.

For computers, we don't literally use a Commodore 64 but we run simpler, old software on new hardware. Mostly because a lot of newer education software is somehow also funded by injecting ads into the games (awful). But there is also some good "modern" educations software worth checking out. I highly recommend gcompris.net.

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