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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#481

Post by jrm4 »

antisol wrote: post #463
jrm4 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who is forced to use it" is an extremely dated argument strategy that has absolutely no place whatsoever in modern computing. Linux is far too ubiquitous for such a notion to be taken seriously. It's not far from "who is forced to use Macs instead of Windows."

Isn't it interesting how perspectives differ? See, I'd argue that the "nobody is forcing you" rhetoric, spoken out loud and with a straight face while vendors drop support for decades-old, stable, and well-established standards in favour of immature, incompatible, broken new shininess, is an extremely dated argument strategy.

Are we disagreeing? It sounds like we agree.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#482

Post by hulitu »

simonask wrote: post #303
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really simple, then I have to use GNOME or KDE or any other thing that is on Wayland which I don't use. AwesomeWM, Xmonad, Fluxbox, OpenBox and many other interfaces just aren't on Wayland and have no intention to be because it just doesn't really do well what they want to and they don't feel like maintaining two versions. The real issue with Wayland and “setting back” isn't what the article says, but just that…

You're lamenting the use of time by people, but you are not those people's boss. People work on what they want to work on. There is no rule that people who worked on Wayland (and I happen to think they did a great job) would have worked on Xorg instead, or that the original motivations for building Wayland are invalid.

> but you are not those people's boss.

You're right. Those people's boss is the freedesktop foundation. Just follow the money.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#483

Post by BowBun »

xorbax wrote: post #425
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

> trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. ....uh, why not use Cinnamon or MATE or Gnome or XFCE? Conflating KDE with desktop Linux is strange I say this as someone who suffered the same problems trying to use KDE (frequent windowing freezing requiring logout) and just swapped to Cinnamon. It's two mousebutton clicks at the login.

As someone who was trying to switch to Linux desktop for the first time, I didn't research all the many options available and didn't try multiple ones. I read that KDE was kind of 'bleeding edge' (I know this is a hot topic) and so that's the one I decided to give a try. I tried to get used to the quirks for a few weeks rather than switch to something else.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#484

Post by BowBun »

Kiboneu wrote: post #379
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

> Even something as simple as alt-tabbing lagged for seconds on an overpowered machine. In what way? If there’s a delay for the task switching menu to close after alt-tabbing (~500ms) this might be due to a kde animation default (it really tripped me up, I’m a rapid window switcher). I can share the fix once I get on my kde machine.

The specific thing I noticed was that, when pressing alt-tab the very first time, there was a noticeable, variable delay for the actual window previews to appear. I don't care as much about the window previews, but the delay in feedback to know which window I was potentially focusing on was painful. I also alt-tab like a madman, for better or for worse. Testing this now on Windows, after I press tab there is an _immediate_ rendering of the previews, 0 (noticeable) delay. On KDE, I'm not exaggerating, I could count 1-2 seconds until I saw something on screen, even when my machine was mostly idle (Discord+music player running).

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#485

Post by BowBun »

simonask wrote: post #65
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

I assume you, a technical person, made sure to help the people giving you the software for free to diagnose what is obviously one or more bugs?

I did not. While I am open to switching to Linux desktop for my primary PC, I'm not open to troubleshooting that level of software in my free time. As a FOSS maintainer I have the utmost respect and admiration for the effort and work done so far. My anecdote was not meant to discount the work, but to highlight friction points which prevented me from switching over.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#486

Post by BowBun »

hacker_homie wrote: post #226
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

Comments like this make me feel like we are living in different worlds, I have KDE/Wayland on multi head machines with different DPIs and laptops. KDE has been the smoothest most reasonable desktops for a long time, I play games they just work, I can make zoom calls, they implemented device recovery. How are you experiencing this, are you rendering in software?

Honestly I'm a regular user on my home PC which is what I was talking about in my comment. Discord, music player, games through GeForce Now/Steam, some coding. I went through a default install, didn't really tweak much and was hoping KDE would just do its thing.

I'm on a Radeon card, 2 monitors of different resolutions, 1xDP 1xHDMI. I check my AMD drivers and upgrade those regularly (as well as BIOS/chip firmware).

I did try to do all the basic troubleshooting steps and making sure all my software was up-to-date. Just felt like the default state without tuning did not meet what Windows' defaults give me.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#487

Post by BowBun »

helterskelter wrote: post #239
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

If you don't mind me asking...are you using nVidia by chance? Have you tried something besides KDE? How long ago was this? I've read about some terrible experiences with Wayland and I've just never had any of these problems in nearly a decade of using it almost every day (sway was a little rough around the edges in the first year it came out, but even then it fixed screen tearing, which I was never able to entirely e…

Happy to share more info, I truly want Linux to be as good as the competition! I had no true technical complaints, only UX ones.

Copying from another reply: > I'm on a Radeon card, 2 monitors of different resolutions, 1xDP 1xHDMI. I check my AMD drivers and upgrade those regularly (as well as BIOS/chip firmware).

This experience was about 3 months ago, and I only tried KDE this time around. I'm not a huge Linux person, so I did some searching and it seemed that (despite some very spicy discussions), KDE was agreed to be pretty bleeding-edge for window management and all the nice features Windows users expect.

I've also noticed vastly different anecdotes, which sucks for maintainers and users alike! Maybe KDE needs a telemetry push since the desktop env specifically targets users who are less willing to troubleshoot at such a low level.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#488

Post by tmtvl »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #479
tmtvl wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SolydXK. There's others, like Siduction and whatnot, but Solyd is pretty solid.

I did a bunch of distro hopping in the 90's but locked onto Debian (mainly testing, now largely unstable) not long after. I'm still just not sure what compels people elsewhere. Especially now: the Debian installer was vicious if you were a newbie, but I hear it's pretty ok now. This is largely a me problem! I don't understand what the value add is of other offerings. It's unclear what else would be good or why. Debia…

The real differences are things that maintainers do. Like how... OBS I think? ...had a bunch of people come in with issues that only existed in the Debian version. Debian software has a bunch of patches, Arch software has far fewer and sticks closer to upstream, other distros will vary. Derivatives also made nonfree easier to set up, which was especially important when MP3 was still encumbered. Nowadays Debian still has the reputation of having old, outdated versions of software, which is going to be hard to shake, especially considering stability is meant to be their main draw.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#489

Post by nickelpro »

uecker wrote: post #460
nickelpro wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take it from me, Daniel Stone has a whole talk on the motivation for Wayland: https://youtu.be/RIctzAQOe44 Broadly, the X Server has a bunch of capabilities which are irrelevant. The modern model is really Window Compositor based, and the X Server protocol is just a pointless middle man in that exchange.

Sorry, I know this nonsense from Daniel Stone I am interested why you believe it. "compatibilities which are irrelevant" do exist, such as old drawing primitives but those are not really an issue. They can be maintained for backwards compatibility and eventually deprecated and removed, but they are not anything which holds back modern clients. The X server protocol is not anymore a "pointless middle man in that excha…

I believe it for the reasons explained by Daniel Stone, there is no difference between my opinion and his on the topic of X's inefficiency as an IPC middleman.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#490

Post by scheeseman486 »

righthand wrote: post #473
scheeseman486 wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cadence of decisions being made and problems being solved on Wayland has massively increased over the last 5 years and being ignorant to that and implying that the project is still spinning it's wheels is delusional. Calling your posts garbage isn't an expression of anger. You should try being a little less sensitive when people mock you for saying dumb shit.

The cadence is still too slow and pathetic but clearly your dip shit brain is involved with Wayland as you’re getting defensive about it. These things should have been established 10 years ago at the very least, as the article says, computers and display servers aren’t a new puzzle to figure out. You should lay yourself down on some railroad tracks so you can remove your dumb shit self from this world.

The irony of telling someone they have anger issues because they were told something they said was garbage, then literally responding later in the thread with a "kill yourself". A reminder, doing this is a criminal offense in many jurisdictions, something you're liable to forget if you have anger issues that prevent you from thinking about what you say.

You're the one who needs help, bucko. That, or the people in your social circle (if there are any).

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