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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#481

Post by zdragnar »

lokar wrote: post #311
zdragnar wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally just charged someone in Philadelphia for illegally voting in every federal election since 2008. Non-citizen, ordered deported back in 2000 but still in the country. There's not been a reliable audit to show the extent to which this happens (probably not enough to affect even local elections), but to say that it isn't happening is just a lie.

If you listen carefully to the "ballot access" side of this argument (actually informed people and politicians, not random on the internet), you will see they don't ever say it does not happen. What they say is that it does not happen enough to plausibly come close to affecting the outcome. And this is widely supported, including by right-wing organizations (as a sibling comment observes). As with most issues, there…

Here's the comment I replied to:

> Source: actually ran a fucking election precinct. Non-citizens aren’t casting ballots illegally.

So, you can see people are actually claiming that it doesn't happen. Further,

> It's already a crime, and we seem to be pretty good at catching it.

How can we be good at catching it if it is too hard for our own citizens to actually get proof that they are citizens? We hear about the cases that happen, but we don't hear about the people go go undetected, because they go undetected.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#482

Post by zdragnar »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #185
zdragnar wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally just charged someone in Philadelphia for illegally voting in every federal election since 2008. Non-citizen, ordered deported back in 2000 but still in the country. There's not been a reliable audit to show the extent to which this happens (probably not enough to affect even local elections), but to say that it isn't happening is just a lie.

One of voter ID's biggest advocates, the Heritage Foundation, could only find 68 cases of non-citizens voting since 1980. Even if all of them are repeat offenders, that's a few hundred bad ballots out of billions cast. As you said, it is also possible to catch these people. Our election integrity is not threatened by non-citizen voters. It just doesn't happen on the scale that Republicans insist it must be happening,…

The Heritage Foundation's database on fraud was explicitly described as not exhaustive, but merely demonstrating that the potential (and reality) is there. It's not like they've got exhaustive access to both voter registration rolls and votes cast.

In states that bother, millions have been removed from voter rolls who weren't eligible in recent years, but the DOJ hasn't done anything with the data either.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#483

Post by raron »

casualscience wrote: post #387
raron wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. A voting system and it security must be understandable to the average people. You can not do that with electronic voting. (Even if electronic voting can be done securely.)

Okay, average person uses a special key picked up from the DMV one time that allows them to login to vote.com and cast their vote. This is a totally normal experience and understandable by anyone who has done online banking.

It doesn't provide anonymity, which is a critical requirement for any (public) election system. It also doesn't provide security, as someone who can control the servers behind vote.com, can change anyone's vote.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#484

Post by tdeck »

WalterBright wrote: post #469
tdeck wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. The whole envelope opening and ballot counting process is recorded and streamed live from multiple angles. https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-a...

That sounds good. But it doesn't account for the ballot from your mail box to the processing center. Nor does it check citizenship & residency status. Ballot harvesting is also legal and takes place in Washington state.

Those things are checked based on the envelope, as other people already pointed out to you in this thread.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#485

Post by WalterBright »

tdeck wrote: post #484
WalterBright wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good. But it doesn't account for the ballot from your mail box to the processing center. Nor does it check citizenship & residency status. Ballot harvesting is also legal and takes place in Washington state.

Those things are checked based on the envelope, as other people already pointed out to you in this thread.

Other people pointed out other things to me, not those.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#486

Post by darig »

lelanthran wrote: post #439
kshri24 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably only works properly in the developed countries. In developing countries like India we suffered through decades of "booth captures" [1] where armed gangs would take over a polling booth and cast votes for their political candidate at gun point. Villagers would be disallowed from casting their votes. In many instances, the polling booth itself would be set on fire, ensuring that those votes are never coun…

> This probably only works properly in the developed countries. In developing countries like India we suffered through decades of "booth captures" [1] where armed gangs would take over a polling booth and cast votes for their political candidate at gun point. Villagers would be disallowed from casting their votes. In many instances, the polling booth itself would be set on fire, ensuring that those votes are never co…

[dead]

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#487

Post by beej71 »

anonym29 wrote: post #312
beej71 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Because operating a motor vehicle is a very dangerous activity. This a very is a poor analogy that you have here.

Nobody ever voted someone dangerous into power? Was voting for Hitler a harmless act?

And voter ID will fix this?

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#488

Post by brendoelfrendo »

zdragnar wrote: post #482
brendoelfrendo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of voter ID's biggest advocates, the Heritage Foundation, could only find 68 cases of non-citizens voting since 1980. Even if all of them are repeat offenders, that's a few hundred bad ballots out of billions cast. As you said, it is also possible to catch these people. Our election integrity is not threatened by non-citizen voters. It just doesn't happen on the scale that Republicans insist it must be happening,…

The Heritage Foundation's database on fraud was explicitly described as not exhaustive, but merely demonstrating that the potential (and reality) is there. It's not like they've got exhaustive access to both voter registration rolls and votes cast. In states that bother, millions have been removed from voter rolls who weren't eligible in recent years, but the DOJ hasn't done anything with the data either.

If the Heritage Foundation's goal was to merely demonstrate the possibility of voter fraud, then they should have saved themselves the effort. Of course it's possible, and of course it happens; and when it happens, it tends to get discovered and handled. They have a much higher bar to clear to convince me that the issue warrants any greater scrutiny than it already receives.

As for the removal of millions from various voter rolls, you'll have to be more specific; most of these are administrative tasks being performed as they are meant to be performed, and very few of the millions removed are non-citizens. Most are removed because they've died, or moved, or failed to respond to inquiries, etc. Oregon, for example, recently moved to remove 800,000 voters from their rolls, but again, this was an administrative move; the voters were already marked as inactive and inactive voters in Oregon do not receive ballots. Removing them wasn't a priority, but now it is, so they're doing it. The point is that millions being removed is not really a cause for alarm or a sign of fraud; it's just a sign that you're unaware of how the system works.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#489

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

NekkoDroid wrote: post #464
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really "much of the left" that is against it, just the loudest voices. Pew research says [1 sorry for the ugly URL] Support for photo ID requirements also remains widespread in both parties. More than nine-in-ten Republicans (95%) and about seven-in-ten Democrats (71%) favor requiring all voters to show government-issued photo identification to vote. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/08/22/majori…

I am p sure a lot of those that aren't for it aren't for it because of access to said ID is gated behind money (or unreasonably out of the way), which would need to be fixed first.

Without an ID, there's far more than just voting that they're not able to take advantage of. Yet I never hear of anyone having trouble living in this modern world that requires an ID for just about everything.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#490

Post by vivekd »

kshri24 wrote: post #388
everfrustrated wrote: post #302

The biggest advantage physical voting has it is follows human-scaling laws. Which often is a problem (inefficient) but for voting this is a massive benefit for one particular reason - due to lack of automation any fraud doesn't also benefit from the same automation so has to be large scale and widely distributed for it to be impactful (the fraud has to be distributed to the humans involved). Which isn't to say that i…

This probably only works properly in the developed countries. In developing countries like India we suffered through decades of "booth captures" [1] where armed gangs would take over a polling booth and cast votes for their political candidate at gun point. Villagers would be disallowed from casting their votes. In many instances, the polling booth itself would be set on fire, ensuring that those votes are never coun…

I don't think any system can do much if things have degraded to the point where armed gangs are running around with impunity. I think systems (paper or otherwise) presuppose a certain level of functional civil society
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