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Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

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Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#481
post #384

Many are protesting because of the sanctions, considered war crimes, imposed by the west onto them. The US and its allies have attacked the currency and the availability of goods for the common Iranian. This is how regime change works. This is what is happening in Cuba as well. You starve and disenfranchise the average person to make regime change by internal bad-actors more successful. Therefore many citizens protes…

While the sanctions may have triggered the current round of protests, what about the previous rounds? [1] Why are you ignoring those? Many Iranians hate their regime because it’s an oppressive theocratic one. Just as an example of why Iranians would hate their regime, the mismanagement and corruption in the area of water management has led to severe water shortages in Tehran and other areas [2]. [1] https://www.dw.co…

I believe I have a somewhat unique perspective on this as a communist.

Capitalist governments, even theocratic ones, are trash for the working class. That would explain those previous protests. Corruption is a totally normal thing in western countries as well. It just doesn't get broadcast in a politicized way, if at all, in our media. (not a coincidence)

Our local capitalist media jut makes it seem louder in certain places when there is an interest, such as the downfall of the Iranian state.

Is this sound enough logic for you to approve sending American kids to die over there?

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#482
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that punishment can be just, and ergo I don't see a moral axis on which to judge violent actions for this purpose. I might concede the use of threatened violence as a means of control, but I don't see any pragmatic way to accomplish this without at least occasional actual punishment so it's a bit non sequiter. It's likely our views are divergent enough that we wont come to a consensus on this, but I a…

> I don't believe that punishment can be just I've encountered such opinions before but never cared to engage with them since they seem utterly alien to me. Can you give me a summary of your opinions or links to some materials? There are multiple goals to a punishment - e.g.: - Deterrence - Protection of others / prevention of re-offense - Removal of aggressor from community to minimize further trauma for the victim…

Sure. It's not something I was formally taught, but rather a viewpoint I came to over time, informed by my own anecdotal experiences and observations. So I don't have any links to share with you, but I'm happy to give a go at explaining my logic.

The naive summary would be that if an individual harms another this is "bad" (a harm to society). To then enact a punishment would be to apply another harm, which would be doubly bad. In my mind, justice is the restoration of balance to the whole, so double harm can never be considered just.

I understand the "goals of punishment" you've outlined and don't even disagree that they can be met (to some extent) via this mechanism. Though I wouldn't classify restitution as a "punishment"[0]. I can also see how the harms from punishment can be moderated when enacted by a state (a group of individuals holding some claim to legitimate power). The question is not whether a system of punishment is sufficient, but whether it is necessary.

If the goal is to reduce all harm to the minimum practical amount we must be pragmatic in our analysis and execution.

I have also seen states grossly amplify the harms involved well past what any individual could be capable of and I have seen individuals operating on behalf of the state launder harm through their office to absolve themselves of any personal accountability for what are ultimately personal actions.

From my observations, those who receive punishment after causing harm rarely become reformed and productive members of society. If anything the punishment[1] leaves them bitter and often actively disadvantages their opportunities for success, leading them to commit more harms and drawing us down a dangerous spiral. Even in confinement these individuals often commit harm to their peers or to those that guard them—and, more abstractly, to the tax payers that are compelled to back this system.

It's not that I doubt these methods can "work" to some extent, but that I see us stuck in a local maxima. I believe we can do much better.

I believe the vast majority of crime that is commited in modern societies could be eliminated through better education, cooperation, and social equality. Why commit crimes, especially violent ones, when the opportunity cost of not pursuing more productive activities is large?

For what remains, I would propose applying insurance. When the volcano erupts and the magma damages my house I do not feel the need to "punish" the volcano.

I do believe there is a floor to violence (and other criminal acts) that will exist no matter what we do. (One-off crimes of passion or acts commited by the criminally insane, for instance). For some of these there may not be any better answer than imprisonment or exile in order to protect the community from future acts. However, I'd love to explore the proactive solutions I recommended above (education, equality, etc) and leave the shrinking vestiges of the current system to handle these edge cases if necessary.

[0]: Likewise, I can see the utility of—e.g—restraining orders and would not call those a "punishment" either, though in this we start to get into the grey area of restraint (limiting an individual's freedom of movement could be classified as a harm).

[1]: Excepting the ultimate punishment.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy hell, an actual bonafide unashamed Hamas apologizer in the wild. Here you go, they have their own category of atrocities in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hamas_attacks

"Atrocities". It is telling that people here discuss how the protestors in Iran are justified in using violence but Palestinians are not allowed to resist foreign occupation. Suddenly that is really bad. Resistance is not a crime.

> Resistance is not a crime.

It actually is when the “resistance” is targeting civilians, including the foreign ones.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness (to myself, I guess) I did start this thread out by saying that I do think this is more complex. With regard to your question, my mistake I thought I implied an answer to (a). Of the people I see complaining about this, a very very small fraction are actually Persian. It's really just one person, and she's someone I met through my wife while living in LA. There's not that many Iranian ex-pats living in th…

There's a very critical bit in my comment that is missing in your response unfortunately -- I'm not sure if I'm communicating it poorly, so I'll try again, with more emphasis. > I'm not sure how meaningful it is to try to discern the exact percentage of "Iranians not living in Iran are upset the media isn't covering the regime murdering its own people". This would be par for the course, no? I'm lost here, because tha…

I see. I can't say I've ever heard of or seen Iranians attempting to compare the situation back in Iran with that of Palestinians in Gaza. To be clear, though, I never claimed (or at least I didn't intend to) that the situation in Gaza and in Iran currently is or was comparable. I think, or at least I thought, the comment that generated this stub had to with with perceived bias in media coverage of the events themselves, to which my point was that there are probably reasons that Americans - as complex as the political dynamic is in this country right now - would sort themselves into groups that would care about one and not the other.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#485
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the sanctions may have triggered the current round of protests, what about the previous rounds? [1] Why are you ignoring those? Many Iranians hate their regime because it’s an oppressive theocratic one. Just as an example of why Iranians would hate their regime, the mismanagement and corruption in the area of water management has led to severe water shortages in Tehran and other areas [2]. [1] https://www.dw.co…

I believe I have a somewhat unique perspective on this as a communist. Capitalist governments, even theocratic ones, are trash for the working class. That would explain those previous protests. Corruption is a totally normal thing in western countries as well. It just doesn't get broadcast in a politicized way, if at all, in our media. (not a coincidence) Our local capitalist media jut makes it seem louder in certain…

Corruption is abundant in every kind of government. Communism doesn’t solve corruption

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#486
The Shah fell after an ever increasing wave of student protests and violent crack downs.

The regime is doing better to hold on to power by killing more brutally, but there is no guarantee that will suffice to motivate its soldiers to kill the protesters in sufficient numbers to quell the unrest.

Ask Assad how killing his people worked out.

Just to be clear, I’m obviously against killing protesters.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#487
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Oslo accords were supposed to lead to a Palestinian state. The exploding busses in Tel Aviv didn’t help. I don’t know what Ben Gurion’s private correspondence was, but it sure binds me, a millennial! Your aggressive rhetoric doesn’t impress anyone, instead it signals your emotional gut response, probably an ill informed one. You already hate me, a stranger, and nothing I will say will make you reconsider your pos…

What Ben gurion wanted has not changed. I'm I'll informed yet you have no idea what your country really was from the start. Not sure if it's feigned victimhood or if you feel guilty for what your country is doing. Either way you seem to take what your country does personally.

Maybe it hasn’t changed because he’s been dead for decades.

Arab Israelis are a fact, despite what you think he wrote in his diary, and despite him having all the power to execute on whatever he wanted.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#488
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know, these chants of “river to the sea” accompanied by signs with maps of israel fully covered with a Palestinian flag tell me the opposite. > if you poll Israelis about their views of Palestinians, you'll find that the majority want to exterminate them all Can you point me to that poll, or is that just your opinion? > Zionists are clearly calling for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza First of all, you clearly do…

>> if you poll Israelis about their views of Palestinians, you'll find that the majority want to exterminate them all > Can you point me to that poll, or is that just your opinion? Not the parent, and not claiming anything about the truth or falsehood of this, but your comment got me to Google it, and this is what I found: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/majority-israelis-support... https://www.trtworld.com/articl…

It sounds crazy to me, and indeed very disturbing if it was true. However if it was true, I would have known at least one person to fit the image they’re portraying. I know none.

I tried to find the original publication, but all I found was press coverage. Specifically I’m interested in the demographics - who was asked these questions, aside from the religious attributes that they name.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#489
post #479
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes indeed. I picked the first few search results for “usage of the word genocide lately”, assuming that you haven’t bothered to do that yourself, in hope that you’ll spend a few minutes getting educated on a subject you talk about with such conviction. [1] https://forward.com/opinion/805648/genocide-has-become-meani... [2] https://www.maxim.org.nz/article/genocide-shouldnt-be-over-u... [3] https://www.jurist.org/com…

> getting educated on a subject Hah. "Get educated because I don't like the way you use the word" From one of the articles you shared: “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” Let's see what Israeli leadership have said (a small sample), and then go look at aerial photos of Gaza now, and then tell me who needs to be educated: Yoev Gallant…

In this case, it’s the most inefficient genocide anyone has ever seen.

Instead of looking at the crap that comes out of the mouths of this horrible government, look at what actually happened. Israel had everyone rallied up, yet they were not exterminated en mass like you and other commenters are saying.

The death toll in this war is a result of Hamas and their supporters taking advantage of the population to protect themselves and cause people like you to speak against Israel [1].

[1] https://nypost.com/2024/06/11/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-beli...

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#490
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe I have a somewhat unique perspective on this as a communist. Capitalist governments, even theocratic ones, are trash for the working class. That would explain those previous protests. Corruption is a totally normal thing in western countries as well. It just doesn't get broadcast in a politicized way, if at all, in our media. (not a coincidence) Our local capitalist media jut makes it seem louder in certain…

Corruption is abundant in every kind of government. Communism doesn’t solve corruption

Right, nothing can, but it is harder to corrupt when the state isn't a handful of people with shields of bureaucracy where access to power can only be attained by the richest individuals in that society.

Communism isn't "let the state do more things" as many think. Communism is "make all of the people into the state". Cut out the middle-man, so to say. Direct democracy, peoples councils, peoples courts, all with a worldview that keeps it that way; socialism/communism. It's intention, as a movement is to not to leave political power to an external organization. To organize your workplace, neighborhood, town and city, into its own political power.

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