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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#481

Post by cpursley »

p-e-w wrote: post #239
lateforwork wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is trying. Around the time the US announced restrictions on the H-1B visa, China announced the K visa for attracting immigrants [1]. At this point in time, I don't think people are lining up to get K visa to go live in China. But if the current trajectory continues in the US, who knows how things will be in 5 years? [1] https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-entry-exit-k-visa...

China has a global reputational problem that will take decades to fix. The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does. Nobody sane is going to believe rhetoric claiming that the US is somehow worse than a country that keeps 1.5 million people in concentration camps, and where people work 70 hours per week, no matter how many times…

What nonsense. The "rest of the world" understands the message loud and clear: China shows up to do business. America shows up to bomb. It's a pretty reasonable choice. Anyways, people now ant a BYD, not a Chevy - because its a better car.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#482

Post by _jss »

noirscape wrote: post #454
gyomu wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese engineers clearly have no problems building specific, technical things; just like Chinese surgeons have no problems carrying out specific, technical surgeries, etc. So how is the language "strictly less technical and specific"? Can you give specific and technical examples?

It's not related to Chinese in specific, but in civilian air traffic, the lingua franca is specifically English[0]. The reason for this is because other languages leave too much room for interpretation. One incident not mentioned in that page that's worth bringing up is Korean Air Flight 801; the crew recognized an issue with the instruments quite a bit before the crash, but because the flight crew essentially was to…

Malcolm Gladwell's description of that accident and amplification is simplistic and not very accurate. There were many errors made that caused that accident, including ATC failing to follow protocol.

English is the language of aviation because in 1951 the countries with the most living pilots and aircraft spoke English. It is not because of any trait particular to English.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#483

Post by IsTom »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #201
tensor wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of analysis isn't much better. First, many countries are increasing funding substantially (e.g. [1]). Secondly, it's about more than funding. The US is also no longer safe for a great many of the scientists that would normally choose come to the US to work. And even for those that aren't too worried about ICE, scientists tend to be very liberal and value freedom and democracy a great deal. The US has sudden…

> scientists tend to be very liberal and value freedom and democracy a great deal What is the alternative? Canada and Europe don't even have free speech.

> don't even have free speech

Only in ways that don't matter to scientists. Not many of them denying the holocaust.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#484

Post by dash2 »

frm88 wrote: post #442
dash2 wrote: post #373

The article provides absolutely no data to support any claims of a brain drain away from America, towards Europe or anywhere else. You’d think they would have found evidence if there was any. So after reading this, my prior on substantial numbers of researchers moving to Europe has gone down. There is an obvious plausible reason why there might not be much brain drain to Europe: salaries are much lower there, because…

The article provides absolutely no data to support any claims of a brain drain away from America, towards Europe or anywhere else. There are no actual numbers for emigree PhDs. Government losses across all agencies are some 10900 scientists [0] or ~14%. Whether they retire, emigrate or no longer do science doesn't matter for the outcome. [0] https://www.science.org/content/article/u-s-government-has-l...

... It matters for Europe! Also, do we know they aren't still in the US university system doing science?

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#485

Post by autoexec »

Fricken wrote: post #426
jimbokun wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLDR: Western Europeans are dumber than an American 6th grader.

I read my first Stephen King novel in grade 6. That seems to me more than sufficient aptitude for reading the things an average person needs to read to get through life.

Was it assigned to you in school? Just because you read something in the sixth grade doesn't mean it was written at a 6th grade level.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#486

Post by John23832 »

entropyneur wrote: post #473
neither_color wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about language. There's no common practical path to becoming "Chinese", either in a legal or cultural sense. Save for a few rare exceptions, you cannot move there, join the culture, become a citizen, etc even if you're fluent. The western systems arent perfect but they allow a greater number of people who really want to assimilate do so regardless of background.

Why would anyone want to become a Chinese citizen? How's everyone discussing linguistics while completely ignoring the authoritarian elephant in the room?

Because the vast number of people already live under some variation of authoritarianism.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#487

Post by LtWorf »

mschuster91 wrote: post #459
tsoukase wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't want as a prime goal to become world leader. They just want to expand their infrastructure, science, production, everything for their own prosperity. If there is no other competitor left, then world leadership will be a by product. They don't suppress foreign countries for that goal (see military presence, coups and secret diplomatic deals in foreign countries that the US was doing after WWII in order t…

> They don't suppress foreign countries for that goal Oh hell yes they do. Chinese overfishing is wreaking havoc across the planet [1], not just near Asia, but the reach of Chinese fishing fleets goes as far as Africa and South America. In the case of Africa, this has been one of the contributing causes for people to flee to Europe. Then you got the stealing. America certainly isn't innocent either when it comes to I…

What are exactly the japanese fishing boats doing in the mediterranean?

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#488

Post by neither_color »

entropyneur wrote: post #473
neither_color wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about language. There's no common practical path to becoming "Chinese", either in a legal or cultural sense. Save for a few rare exceptions, you cannot move there, join the culture, become a citizen, etc even if you're fluent. The western systems arent perfect but they allow a greater number of people who really want to assimilate do so regardless of background.

Why would anyone want to become a Chinese citizen? How's everyone discussing linguistics while completely ignoring the authoritarian elephant in the room?

It's not exactly a linguistics discussion, it's a discussion about attracting talent to live/work somewhere. Im not saying whether it's good or bad on China's part, that's a separate issue. Im saying that the possibility of integration is harder than just learning the language.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#489

Post by autoexec »

alex43578 wrote: post #420
autoexec wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just means that we need to move the bottom 20% of students into their own classes where they can get the extra attention they need. That means they can get a high quality education and so can everyone else. You do not have to choose. You can have both.

No, you do have to choose because money for education (or anything) isn’t unlimited. There’s a real question of how many resources and what kind of ROI you’d get from trying to educate that bottom 20% to the same level. I saw this play out when I was in school: profoundly intellectually disabled students getting 1:1 or even 2:1 teaching, trying to get an 18 year old to be able to read 3 letter words, while AP classes…

> No, you do have to choose because money for education (or anything) isn’t unlimited.

The US is the richest nation on Earth. It can easily afford to educate its people. If you really think we'd need to find new sources of tax dollars to fund that, I have a whole lot of suggestions for where to start and I'd bet that you can easily think of a few low hanging fruit yourself.

> There’s a real question of how many resources and what kind of ROI you’d get from trying to educate that bottom 20% to the same level.

The ROI is massive. As I've said elsewhere, uneducated children become uneducated adults. Adults who vote. Adults who, if they lack the education needed to live successful lives, end up costing society in many ways over far more years than they spend in school.

I don't know about you, but I want to live and work with people who are educated and literate. If I were looking to move to another country for work, I'd want to move somewhere where the people were educated and literate. Especially if those people were going to be my boss, or my neighbor, or handling my food, or in charge of my visa application. Having a well educated population is pure win. The cost of ignorance and a lack of the kinds of skills a good school teaches is staggering.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#490

Post by foxglacier »

fyredge wrote: post #429
foxglacier wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't need those other people because Chinese people are naturally smarter than them, generally. If that idea makes you uncomfortable, just look at the data and you'll agree.

It may look that way on the surface, but they are absolutely no better than other ethnicities. The main difference is the culture of pragmatism and the constant strive to better their lives. Education is seen as a path to better opportunities, which becomes a major focus for their youth of all social standing.

> no better than other ethnicities

Contradicted by the research. You're just repeating misinformation. It doesn't matter if there's also a culture of striving because both things can be true at the same time.

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