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Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

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Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#481

Post by ctbeiser »

I have a guess as to why this fix was delayed—on the release candidate, you weren't able to resize windows in Stickies. I filed a bug for it. This felt like a last-minute addition—the previous betas didn't have the 'fix.'

Let's think about why: if the width of the handle is based on the radius, and the radius is 0 for a window, there's nowhere for the grab handle to be.

I assume this wasn't the only app with fully square windows, and so the fix actually caused more problems. Respinning a release candidate is expensive, and they were out of time for this one. So the patch gets reverted and the fix gets iterated on for the next release, where they'll presumably figure something clean out that's conditional on exact window shape.

26.4 could be the spring hardware release or it could be the spring services release. I would give it a 2/3 chance of landing in 26.4, and a 1/3 of being moved to 26.5.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#482

Post by dsego »

staticassertion wrote: post #461
dsego wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I figured out Or you could maybe learn how to use the OS, in linux lingo RTFM. I don't want to be rude, but the critique was very flippant, the arguments vague, all about expectations based on years using a different OS, doesn't seem you want to give it a fair chance.

This is pretty funny. > the arguments vague I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed. I referenced principles of UX as well as literal "here is what my experience was in a concrete story". > , all about expectations based on years using a different OS No? I mean, again, funny. I explained how I've been using MacOS for years. Actually a decade, now that I count it out. > doesn't see…

Plenty of people use an OS for years without learning. And you admitted to spending time in the terminal, which indicates lack of will to try and learn macos shortcuts, gestures, windowing model, spaces, and so on. And the comment used sweeping generalizations, without referring to any specific principles broken which aren't just personal dislikes or unfamiliarity with a different way of doing things.

> I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed.

No guidelines named, no principles defined. No comparison standard is established.

The earlier fullscreen story is a specific case, maybe a discoverability argument, but not not that UX violates every principle. MacOS spaces and fullscreen apps follow a workspace concept, it's not a window resize mode.

> Asymmetric user experiences

What’s asymmetric is not the command — it’s the spatial context. The claim that it’s violated is arguable.

> Heavily reliant on gestures

Not sure which guidelines this breaks, but every gesture has a keyboard shortcut alternative, there is mission control key, menu bar, dock.

> Ridiculous failure modes

No failure mode is defined.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#483

Post by hbn »

galad87 wrote: post #194
2bitencryption wrote: post #36

The interesting part, for anyone who actually reads the article - the change was fixed in an RC and then reverted in the final release. Which implies there was some regression, some issue, some incorrect behavior or negative impact. One has to wonder… what could it have been? What could the issue with having a more accurate clickbox for the corner of the window possibly be?

It broke some NSWindow styles: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/814798

The sad part is we all know the real solution is to just UNDO THE DAMN FISHER PRICE ROUNDING

NO ONE CARED THAT THE WINDOW CORNER RADIUS DIDN'T MATCH AN IPAD, IT DOESN'T NEED TO

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#484

Post by staticassertion »

dsego wrote: post #482
staticassertion wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty funny. > the arguments vague I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed. I referenced principles of UX as well as literal "here is what my experience was in a concrete story". > , all about expectations based on years using a different OS No? I mean, again, funny. I explained how I've been using MacOS for years. Actually a decade, now that I count it out. > doesn't see…

Plenty of people use an OS for years without learning. And you admitted to spending time in the terminal, which indicates lack of will to try and learn macos shortcuts, gestures, windowing model, spaces, and so on. And the comment used sweeping generalizations, without referring to any specific principles broken which aren't just personal dislikes or unfamiliarity with a different way of doing things. > I gave both g…

> And you admitted to spending time in the terminal, which indicates lack of will to try and learn macos shortcuts, gestures, windowing model, spaces, and so on.

It indicates no such thing, other than that my preferred UX on a mac has landed on the terminal. It doesn't indicate whatsoever that I never tried to learn, or that I haven't learned, unless you presuppose that learning would necessitate using the computer a specific way.

Indeed, I have learned quite a lot of the various gestures, spaces, etc, unsurprisingly. I avoid them because they suck, and the learning experience was shit.

> And the comment used sweeping generalizations, without referring to any specific principles broken which aren't just personal dislikes or unfamiliarity with a different way of doing things.

All design principles are going to boil down to personal dislikes lol but no, nothing was "unfamiliarity" you can stop saying that thanks.

> No guidelines named, no principles defined. No comparison standard is established.

I could cite guidelines if you think it would help. Microsoft released a UX guideline years ago justifying why magic corners etc are a bad idea. Of course, they obviously don't follow that guide these days. What would you like?

I'm not interested in debating this. I'm perfectly fine with how I've expressed myself, I'm just not motivated enough this late in a Friday to get more detailed, so you'll have to just try to decipher what I've said and find if there's value to you or reject it, which I think is your prerogative.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#485

Post by dsego »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #469
dsego wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they ditched all the ports and added the butterfly keyboard?

While I get the butterfly keyboard hate (though mine is so far still perfectly fine) the USB-C ports were amazing. I have a 2016 MBpro and that thing still cooks really well. As somebody who worked in video production those ports were a godsend. No more waiting around for footage to transfer all the damn time. Complete game changer. Plus with one or two quality docks I could plug-in literally anything I ever needed.…

It introduced USB-C before it was ubiquitous even on smartphones, at least in my area. All the peripherals still needed a dongle, it was the dongle era. The keyboard was okay to type on once I got used to the short travel, but the keycaps easily broke off, and dust would get in and the keys wouldn't register. Also, the whole laptop would get very hot, at least the 13" pro without the touchbar. I prefer the older 2015 model, before the butterfly, that's the one I had at work but had to give it up, and I regret waiting for the new models instead of purchasing the same one.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#486

Post by Aloisius »

staticassertion wrote: post #479
bsimpson wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. You can three-finger-swipe between spaces. I know there's a keyboard equivalent, but you'd have to look it up.

> Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. I think that's really bad design. Is that even controversial?

If you don't have a multi-touch pointing device, I suppose. Though, it's like trying to use Windows with a single mouse button.

You can also hit ctrl-left or ctrl-right to move spaces without one or ctrl-1, ctrl-2, ctrl-3, etc. to switch to a specific virtual desktop directly.

You can also hit ctrl+ scroll wheel if you have one. Or add mission control hot corner to one of the screen corners.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#487

Post by hollandheese »

dlcarrier wrote: post #396
readme wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even gnome tries to be too modern imo. KDE is perfect. I used to feel like KDE was too much like a toy. Now by comparison it looks utilitarian.

I bought an SBC that booted into Gnome on the official disk image, and it didn't recognize my mouse. It was entirely unusable. In applications that were part of Gnome itself, like the settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.

>settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.

Huh? All you need is tab and the arrow keys to navigate the GNOME Settings app. I'm literally doing that right now. Maybe it was a later addition but it works perfectly fine in GNOME 49.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#488

Post by hollandheese »

wonnage wrote: post #444
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

As long as you stay far away from Wayland, flatpaks, and nVidia drivers

Wayland and flatpaks work perfectly fine. nVidia drivers on the other hand...

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#489

Post by [deleted] »

firen777 wrote: post #96
dham wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac has always had horrible window management. Made worse because applications and windows are a separate concept. Used to seem clever but in the world of multiple workspaces it's a terrible decision. Now it's even worse trying to manage multiple llms and projects.

> because applications and windows are a separate concept Is this the reason why "closed" applications still show up in cmd+tab?

[deleted]

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#490

Post by moondance »

staticassertion wrote: post #479
bsimpson wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. You can three-finger-swipe between spaces. I know there's a keyboard equivalent, but you'd have to look it up.

> Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. I think that's really bad design. Is that even controversial?

It’s certainly “bad design” if we’re designing specifically with the OS convert who has a grudge against trackpads as the target user. But multitouch and its functionalities has been a fundamental part of macOS for nearly two decades now. For better or worse, a traditional mouse makes about as much sense for a macOS environment as it does for an iPad at this point. It’s workable, and it has certain advantages, but it’s really not recommended as your only pointer. At best, it’s used in tandem with a trackpad.
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