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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#481

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What a bizarre comment. Who cares about their genetic line? Are you evolution itself? Do you have stakes in making sure your genes make it to the future?

who cares about their genetic line? literally every human being who has wanted grand children

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#482

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Don't be ridiculous, talking about "partisan fear". They have taken away documented, American citizens without due process. When armed men can take you out of your home or your car and whisk you away without a judicial warrant and without due process, it is very reasonable to be afraid.

It’s really not. Define taken away. They’ve absolutely detained some citizens, then let them go. And again, not defending what they are doing, they are awful,but you are probably more likely to be hit by lightning than you are to have any of your family planning go wrong because of them if you are a full citizen. (If you are undocumented here right now, yeah, totally.) Hysterical people think they are being rational…

> you are probably more likely to be hit by lightning

I get that you're trying to rationalize this scenario, but this line is completely false. If there was a nation-wide wave of aviation terrorism, it would not be appropriate to say that you're "more likely to be hit by lightning" than risk your life in a plane. The situation has changed, and they're not being hysterical for observing the trends and adjusting accordingly.

Lightning has a relatively static chance of hitting you. The likelihood of feds accidentally executing you in your hometown is on the rise, and we don't know when it will stop climbing.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#483
a usa with fewer people would be quite nice. more liebensraum for everybody, true affluence, a spacious rowhome in a walkable city and a rustic cabin in the woods for everybody. population decline is really only a problem in welfare states. it took less than 2 generations to demonstrate this.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a period of behind effectively a stay at home dad and I disagree with this completely. Being a stay at home parent doesn’t literally mean you have to stay at home . Take the kids and leave the house. Go on adventures. I met so many people randomly during that time. It was vastly more social than sitting in an office or working from home alone.

Did you struggle with dirty looks at the park? I wasn't a SAHP but I'd spend time with my kids at a park nearby and people would give me dirty looks for playing with my kids if my wife wasn't present.

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#485

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

> My take on it is: you have to make your country/society a place where people will want to have children and feel/know that their children's lives will be good ones. Anecdata of one - but I think one non-trivial contributor that I haven't seen people talking about is... From my experience and the experience of most of my friends and family... people actively DON'T want kids until about 30 - and often times that's to…

That’s also my experience. Specially for women in and my wives close environment.

90% or more wanted to have kids. But the ones that started after 35+ or didn’t have a partner until that age did struggle a lot, and many never managed even after investing 10a of thousands of euros on fertility care.

They prioritized lifestyle and career before family. Then it was too late to have both.

There might be many metrics to measure fulfillment in life, but if I had to choose one, I would probably stick with love. And nothing fills my love cup more than having a large family. YMMV.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#486

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

You are missing that we have to also have a cultural norm of valuing having children. That has sort of disappeared recently (for whatever reasons.). So you need affordability in general (home + childcare, etc), compared to your income, and you need to have values that prioritize children over just traveling the world or playing video games.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. They say they do, but they rely on us to take the initiative and make social things happen. After dozens of rejections or silence from dozens of them, it's rejection fatigue with the friends…

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other sid…

My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home.

My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship.

My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned.

I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#488

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Free childcare makes it so much easier. Can’t imagine leaving 80% of my salary at the daycare, but some in the UK do that.

Tax payer paid childcare is known for its low quality. There was an article in The Economist about it.

Not in Germany, though.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#489

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

> My take on it is: you have to make your country/society a place where people will want to have children and feel/know that their children's lives will be good ones. Anecdata of one - but I think one non-trivial contributor that I haven't seen people talking about is... From my experience and the experience of most of my friends and family... people actively DON'T want kids until about 30 - and often times that's to…

you're in a bubble. probably urban, educated and wealthy.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#490
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we already give low income people subsidized or free daycare. The real issue is how the system didn’t support the middle. If you are broke you get tons of support - healthcare (Medicaid), food (SNAP), housing (section 8), and a myriad of subsidized options for everything, from discounted utilities to childcare. But be middle class and get very little, except paying taxes to support the poor to get everythin…

Well, they know the middle will work no matter what, so they may as well squeeze them.

George Carlin had a bit on this. Went something like:

The rich people take all of the money, do none of the work and pay none of the taxes.

The middle class does all of the work and pays all of the taxes.

The lower class is there to scare the shit out of the middle class.

He was wrong about the taxes, the rich do pay most of them but in proportion to their wealth it can look like not much.

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