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Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

keck.usc.edu

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Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#481

Post by margalabargala »

stahtops wrote: post #454
margalabargala wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a fair point that engine braking is not dissimilar. However the impact of engine braking is orders of magnitude smaller. The reason to capture 1W and then spend 1.1W is it keeps you at a consistent speed. That's why manufacturers do it. Lots of people in these comments who have never actually driven an EV while looking at the energy usage readout. Personally I've never driven a Porsche but I've driven EVs fr…

You should answer for yourself why any of the three stopping methods would result in more or less tire wear than the other.

I have, multiple times, in comments here.

The responses tend to be either "actually regen braking wears tires just as much as using brake rotors" by people who didn't actually read, or "surely manufacturers wouldn't do that, it doesn't match the mental model in my head" by people who've never paid close attention to the power readouts while driving an EV.

Your own response was "actually one manufacturer does have a setting that will avoid the effect if someone sets it, therefore the whole concept must be wrong".

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#482

Post by maxerickson »

londons_explore wrote: post #440
idiotsecant wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Many of these sensors are mostly CAN-based, rather than hardwired. It would be a time consuming enterprise to custom bake a solution for each vehicle model to fake out protection systems. For better or worse EVs are substantially more difficult to modify than typical ICE.

Only takes 1 person to make a "safety system faker: Makes car run even with faults" which is a $20 thing you can buy from aliexpress and can be clipped anywhere onto the canbus - just two wires to hook into. It then runs code which auto detects the car model (fairly easy from the messages on the bus), and has a database of the messages to send/inhibit to change the behaviour in the desired way. Because so many cars u…

You basically get internal faults and cable faults with HV stuff. A box reporting that the AC compressor motor winding isn't shorted isn't going to make the compressor work with a shorted winding. ECU probably wouldn't disengage the powertrain for that though.

And then things like battery temperature warnings will quickly turn into real failures.

And then the next generation or 2 of stuff is going to at least attempt to implement cybersecurity features that greatly complicate tampering at the message level.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#483

Post by rpozarickij »

I've developed a habit of holding my breath for a few seconds whenever a particularly smelly/polluting car drives by me while I'm walking on the street, so when I hear/see an EV approaching I often feel relieved. I'm lucky to live in a city with comparatively clean air, but I hope a time comes when we treat car exhaust gases the same way as we treat second hand tobacco smoke because in both cases pollutants are literally being absorbed into our bodies.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#484

Post by mpyne »

buckle8017 wrote: post #434
mpyne wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oil not used in ICE cars is just used someplace else. That's simply not true. Oil used someplace else would have been used someplace else either way. There is a supply/demand effect where reduced oil demand would lower its price and therefore arrest the loss of oil demand from cars by other consumers of oil, but the net effect would still be that less oil is burned and used.

You're simply wrong. Most of the world is priced out of purchasing oil. When the price declines those people can (and do) buy the oil westerners aren't using. But don't trust me, here's the data. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fossil-fuel-primary-energ...

> When the price declines those people can (and do) buy the oil westerners aren't using.

You're missing that the supply drops as well since it is not economical to produce the same amount of oil as before at a lower price.

As long as the supply curve does not change (and nothing about EV usage changes the supply side here), a reduction in demand leads to lower consumption.

Edit: And in addition, your chart doesn't show anything like you purport it to show. By your claim, oil consumption by non-Western countries should have been drastically higher in 2000-2007 when oil prices were lower than they are today. Yet the opposite is true.

Oil consumption is up over time, including in non-Western countries, but that was driven by organic changes in demand, not changes in supply. Switching to EVs would act as a reduction in demand and therefore reduce overall oil usage, at least as compared to a world where vehicle transport required ICE vehicles.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#485

Post by vel0city »

cbeach wrote: post #323
jodrellblank wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rarely in everyday life situations do I feel as claustrophobic as being in a car in traffic in a typical road. Can’t change direction (one lane no junctions), can’t change speed (vehicles in front and behind), can’t stop (flow of traffic), can’t break concentration (driving), can’t change body position (car cabin is tiny, seats and hand/feet controls are fixed, no space to stand), can’t look away for more than a mome…

No one is forcing you to drive if you have these peculiar feelings about it.

For most of the country you can't really get groceries or have reasonable employment without operating a car. We've designed our cities to make it effectively a requirement.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#486

Post by dangus »

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #420
dangus wrote: post #145

Something that needs to be pointed out, especially for those who want to push back against findings like this and essentially defend ICE vehicles: Really step back and imagine a world where the modern EV [1] was first to market and a gasoline combustion engine was second . Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? The downsides of gasoline cars are actually prett…

> Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? Anyone who likes the sensations of driving and not just going fast in a straight line. When you show me the equivalent of an EV Lotus Elise, I'll be properly swayed.

What percentage of the car buying market buys enthusiast vehicles? The top of the charts is made up of cars like the RAV4, Model Y, and CR-V. These all represent versatile practical family transportation.

Enthusiast vehicles are disappearing in the middle class segment of the market. Where are the Mitsubishi Eclipse, Toyota Celica, Toyota MR2, Chevrolet Camaro, Z4/Supra getting discontinued, Focus RS, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, the list goes on? The Nissan Z was just updated but sales have been abysmal. The only survivors seem to be the Mustang and the MX-5, and Dodge is busy screwing up the Challenger’s replacement Charger model.

Super expensive cars like the Lotus Elise are irrelevant to the broader market.

Look at the (p)reviews of the upcoming Porsche Cayenne EV. It’s the best Cayenne ever made. I think the Porsche Taycan and the Lucid Air Sapphire are fun to drive, competent performance vehicles. Even the Ioniq 5 N is a great time.

There are a number of electric supercars and hypercars on the market: https://www.roadandtrack.com/rankings/g45639363/best-electri...

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#487

Post by margalabargala »

magicalhippo wrote: post #455
margalabargala wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, lots of vehicles allow you to change the strength. Some allow you to set the regen very very low. Generally they do not allow you to turn it off.

I'll have to double-check, but as I recall it the lowest setting in Sports mode was off. But maybe just very, very low. In any case, what's the problem with having it very, very low vs off? Like, what do you really need coasting for? Not something I've felt I've been missing.

You're right that turning the auto regen way way down also essentially prevents the accelerated tire wear I describe.

My main point is that most people don't turn it off. One pedal driving is convenient!

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#488

Post by vel0city »

memen wrote: post #343
raverbashing wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing the amount of bs and grasping at straws that the oil company will push to keep their amazing polluting stuff going on No I'm sure fracking and pipelines and all the crap the oil industry needs just to exist does not have any pfas or micro plastics

Micro plastics pollution is a relatively new problem and thus many direct and indirect effects are not yet fully understood. Moving emissions from CO2 (gas) to micro particles (solid), means emissions will be deposited more local to roads. Moving emissions from 'big oil' installations to the road, means more local emissions/deposits nearer to your home and backyard. Additionally, due to the fourth power law [0], you…

> A 1988 report by the Australian Road Research Board stated that the rule is a good approximation for rutting damage, but an exponent of 2 (rather than 4) is more appropriate to estimate fatigue cracking.

> The accuracy of the law of the fourth power is disputed among experts, since the test results depend on many other factors, such as climatic conditions, in addition to the factors mentioned above.

It's incredible one agency in the '50s did some small limited tests and everyone will parrot it as if it's tablets handed down from God.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#489

Post by darknavi »

kalaksi wrote: post #267
dgacmu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets studied. EVs are often heavier, which is worse for tire wear, but use regenerative braking, which is better for brake dust. Overall, EVs are likely a net win on the combination of these two things, and a big win on exhaust emissions, but it would be nice if we could shift to lighter and smaller vehicles and increase the mix of non-cars such as e-bikes and mass transit. Source: https://www.eiturbanmobility.eu/…

ICE cars also require large and heavy trucks to transport fuel around constantly.

ICE cars also often leak all sorts of liquids onto roadways (and thus into our water ways).

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#490

Post by vel0city »

bluGill wrote: post #447
flakeoil wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But 50 years from now most of that ICE infrastructure will have disappeared. I'm guessing it will be already in 20-30 years from now. In 5-10 years from now, no-one will buy an ICE vehicle. Add to those 10 years a lifetime of 10-20 years for the last sold ICE vehicle and you get 20-30 years. So 20-30 years from today there will not be many ICE cars rolling on the streets and most gas stations and other needed infra…

The average car is 12 years old (us, but other countries are similar). so gas stations are likely still common in 20 years. in 10 years new gas stations will be built a lot less often, but nobody will close an existing one that they wouldn't close anyway.

I think a lot of the smaller gas stations will slowly die off and we'll see continued growth of those kinds of fuel stations known for their food adopt EV charging as well and grow to offer food + energy whether that be gas or electric.

Buc-ees these days has tons of rows of EV charging, often both Tesla and Mercedes brands. I imagine we'll see a similar thing with other brands.

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