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Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

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Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#481

Post by galleywest200 »

tim333 wrote: post #477
tliltocatl wrote: post #355

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. Ther…

I just force quit Firefox because it was slowing the macbook with loads of memory use for nothing much running. On with Chrome... They should that sort of thing?

I have not really ever had this issue, and I use Firefox Developer Edition on an M2 Macbook Pro every work day.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#482

Post by ethbr1 »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #381
tliltocatl wrote: post #355

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. Ther…

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. They always did, everyone does. This is not really new, and not really that harmful in itself. The deeper problem is that you need developers who are also understanding what they are doing, what people want and need, developers who are nerdy about some topic and very deep into their understanding of it. But Mozilla seems to…

> [Mozilla always jumped on fads], everyone does.

If you read down in the thread, there's a good discussion about how this simply isn't true about Mozilla.

Of the fads Christophe Henry mentioned top of thread, Mozilla flat out didn't invest any resources in some of them, invested minimal resources in others (accepting donations in crypto), and modest resources in VR (which you'd expect given the browser-VR integration standards forming).

So the feeling about Mozilla being tech-ADHD comes more from folks reading their social media posts than the people who work there or watch the codebase.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#483

Post by seltzered_ »

thisislife2 wrote: post #324
seltzered_ wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a different tack, I feel like I went out of my way to use Firefox (and Firefox Focus) on iOS and was thankful they had them during a time where everything had to use the safari renderer. IIRC Firefox Focus even had an ad-block extension that worked on safari

Firefox / Focus (like all browsers on ios) actually uses the "Safari renderer" (WebKit) because Apple doesn't allow any other browser engine on ios.

Historically yes, but in some areas like the EU there have been some regulation changes in 2024 where theoretically there could be alternate browser engines on iOS but in practice it hasn't happened yet. See https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/apples-browser-engine-ban...

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#484

Post by [deleted] »

tliltocatl wrote: post #459
braiamp wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core No, the problem is that Mozilla needs money if they want to stop leaning off Google, and people are simply too blind by their hatred of AI that doesn't figure out that Mozilla needs money. What is giving shit loads of money right now? A-fucking-I. If their investors portfolio doesn't include AI on their products, nobody will…

And how exactly is the AI going to give Mozilla money? I mean not investor money, but actual profit? By alienating their moat userbase (privacy-minded technies)? Because if not for the AI haters, nobody would care about Firefox __at all__. Funding end-user-facing FOSS is hard. An OS kernel or a DMBS can count on corporations that need new features providing funding. A browser can't. But then if small individual donat…

[deleted]

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#485

Post by tim333 »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #382
echelon wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people screaming "but AI is the future" I witnes far more people screaming against AI. The media started kicking this off in 2021, 2022. It blossomed into a fully distributed, organic, memetic device from there. It has a life of its own now. Children and young people are practically indoctrinated if you look at social media comments. I was invited to give lectures to several art schools about using Blender, Unreal…

> I witnes far more people screaming against AI. If you shove it into people's faces, they will have knee jerk reaction and hate it. If the AI industry didn't desperately try to push it in every possible way in desperate bid to be profitable and it was just a thing that slowly gets better and is value added, not a nagging push, there would be far less of that. But companies like MS have idea of consent of average rap…

People tend to complain about stuff that's annoying and broken and just ignore things that work well.

Like Chrome uses AI to translate language and everyone just takes it for granted.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#486

Post by rchaud »

estimator7292 wrote: post #461
braiamp wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core No, the problem is that Mozilla needs money if they want to stop leaning off Google, and people are simply too blind by their hatred of AI that doesn't figure out that Mozilla needs money. What is giving shit loads of money right now? A-fucking-I. If their investors portfolio doesn't include AI on their products, nobody will…

Mozilla could instead stop giving all the google money to a CEO who only knows how to say "me too! AI too!" Maybe hire some engineers instead?

Mozilla has plenty of engineers. I wouldn't underestimate the degree to which the engineers themselves are pushing for AI features. After all, they are working at a nonprofit organization for below-market wages, and will at some point need to brush up their resume for the next gig. Browser development is cool, but FAANG doesn't hire for browser dev, they hire for AI.

By working on AI-whatever, the engineers have a reason to stay at Mozilla, and will have a "desirable" skillset when they eventually leave. That's something a CEO would need to take into account.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#487

Post by rchaud »

zdragnar wrote: post #458
braiamp wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core No, the problem is that Mozilla needs money if they want to stop leaning off Google, and people are simply too blind by their hatred of AI that doesn't figure out that Mozilla needs money. What is giving shit loads of money right now? A-fucking-I. If their investors portfolio doesn't include AI on their products, nobody will…

A-fucking-I doesn't make the product better. Mozilla constantly runs in every direction other than what their core users want or need. > You want Mozilla to stop doing that? Guarantee their moneis flow. Sure, just as soon as they sell something a privacy focused user of a browser wants. Privacy focused password management built into Firefox with paid sync or enterprise integration. Privacy focused paid email hosting,…

Interestingly, Proton does a lot of what you're talking about: email hosting, password management, cloud storage, docs and spreadsheets. The only thing they don't have is their own browser.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#488

Post by marcosdumay »

ryandrake wrote: post #475
tliltocatl wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIR Mozilla is firmly against introducing new stuff that could be used for fingerprinting and that was their (and Apple's) rationale for not implementing it. That's a noble goal for sure, but peripheral access is a genuinely useful feature now that the Web had become the de-facto standard application platform. You don't like JS having access to everything - fine, but than we need some other way to do this (without…

> now that the Web had become the de-facto standard application platform. I feel like we can continue to resist this, although I admit it's getting more and more futile every year. It's like trying to hold back the tide. I personally don't want the web to be an application platform. The web is for browsing web pages. I have an application platform on my computer already.

> I feel like we can continue to resist this

Or we can accept it, make a good access control system in an app platform for once, and add the few missing parts that the web standards are still missing so it becomes a good platform.

And none of that requires that we give up on an entire facade focused on reading text.

But if Mozilla focus on resisting, they can't do that, and honestly, nobody else out there will.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#489

Post by tliltocatl »

ryandrake wrote: post #475
tliltocatl wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIR Mozilla is firmly against introducing new stuff that could be used for fingerprinting and that was their (and Apple's) rationale for not implementing it. That's a noble goal for sure, but peripheral access is a genuinely useful feature now that the Web had become the de-facto standard application platform. You don't like JS having access to everything - fine, but than we need some other way to do this (without…

> now that the Web had become the de-facto standard application platform. I feel like we can continue to resist this, although I admit it's getting more and more futile every year. It's like trying to hold back the tide. I personally don't want the web to be an application platform. The web is for browsing web pages. I have an application platform on my computer already.

I see your point. But there is an objective need for a some common ground to applications on. Something with zero install friction and proper sandbox isolation.

Because the alternative isn't "yes, we are providing Linux and MacOS-arm64 binaries", the alternative is "here is your Win32 blob that is broken on wine because screw you that's why" or "here is a .jar with a horrible awt fronts that is also broken unless you run it under an ancient JRT" - and that's on user's side, on developer's side it's even worse. I feel that web becoming an application platform was net negative for the web, but positive for every other platform (and users and developers as well). Yes, it makes web crappy, but we need some crappy platform where all the crap goes - and at least the browser contains the crap well.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#490

Post by PurpleRamen »

ethbr1 wrote: post #482
PurpleRamen wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. They always did, everyone does. This is not really new, and not really that harmful in itself. The deeper problem is that you need developers who are also understanding what they are doing, what people want and need, developers who are nerdy about some topic and very deep into their understanding of it. But Mozilla seems to…

> [Mozilla always jumped on fads], everyone does. If you read down in the thread, there's a good discussion about how this simply isn't true about Mozilla. Of the fads Christophe Henry mentioned top of thread, Mozilla flat out didn't invest any resources in some of them, invested minimal resources in others (accepting donations in crypto), and modest resources in VR (which you'd expect given the browser-VR integratio…

> If you read down in the thread, there's a good discussion about how this simply isn't true about Mozilla.

Yeah, I'm not searching 500 posts for this..

> Of the fads Christophe Henry mentioned top of thread

Who is Christophe Henry? Is this some namecalling?

> Mozilla flat out didn't invest any resources in some of them,

That doesn't make it better, being somewhat selective is also normal. Most companies don't have the resources to follow literally every fad.

> So the feeling about Mozilla being tech-ADHD comes more from folks reading their social media posts than the people who work there or watch the codebase.

That's the point. Communication of Mozilla is so awful, their whole public picture is how wasteful they are with money, throwing it at pointless dead on arrival-projects. Here are two lists with them [1], [2], this is not a small number of failed projects. They are not even including the small changes in the browser itself.

[1] https://www.spacebar.news/the-mozilla-graveyard/ [2] https://killedbymozilla.com/

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