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IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

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481–490 of 985 posts

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#481

I agree. Here is my thinking. What if LLM providers will make short answers the default (for example, up to 200 tokens, unless the user explicitly enables “verbose mode”). Add prompt caching and route simple queries to smaller models. Result: a 70%+ reduction in energy consumption without loss of quality. Current cost: 3–5 Wh per request. At ChatGPT scale, this is $50–100 million per year in electricity (at U.S. rate…

Context Tokens want a word...

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100GW per year is not going to happen. The largest plant in the world is the Three Gorges Dam in China at 22GW and it’s off the scales huge. We’re not building the equivalent of four of those every year. Unless the plan is to power it off Sam Altman’s hot air. That could work. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations

Amazing that 4 of the top 5 are renewables in China.

Not really that surprising.

Authoritarianism has its draw backs obviously but one of its more efficient points is it can get things done if the will is at the top. Since China doesnt have a large domestic oil supply like the US it is a state security issue to get off oil as fast as possible.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#483
post #435
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the secondary market is still alive. this is the crux. Will these data center cards, if a newer model came out with better efficiency, have a secondary market to sell to? It could be that second hand ai hardware going into consumers' hands is how they offload it without huge losses.

The GPUs going into data centers aren't the kind that can just be reused by putting them into a consumer PC and playing some video games, most don't even have video output ports and put out FPS similar to cheap integrated GPUs.

And the big ones don't even have typical PCIe sockets, they are useless outside of behemoth rackmount servers requiring massive power and cooling capacity that even well-equipped homelabs would have trouble providing!

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#484
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got anything vis-a-vis the message as opposed to the messenger? I'm not sure these examples are even the gotchas you're positing them as. Xerox is a dinosaur that was last relevant at the turn of the century, and IBM is a $300bn company. And if it wasn't obvious, the Apple II never made a dent in the corporate market, while IBM and later Windows PCs did. In any case, these examples are almost half a century old and d…

If it's not obvious, Steve's quote is ENTIRELY about capex ROI, and I feel his quote is more relevant to what is happening today than anything Arvind Krishna is imagining. The quote is posted in my comment not to grandstand Apple in any sense, but to grandstand just how consistently wrong IBM has been about so many opportunities that they have failed to read correctly - reprography, mini computers and microcomputers…

A big difference is that in the past things like the potential of the PC were somewhat widely underestimated. And then the internet was again as well.

But in modern times it's rather the opposite scenario. The average entity is diving head first into AI simply expecting a revolutionary jump in capability that a more 'informed', for lack of any less snooty term, perspective would suggest is quite unlikely to occur anytime in the foreseeable future. Basically we have a modern day gold rush where companies and taking out unbelievably massive loans to invest in shovels.

The only way this doesn't catastrophically blow up is if AI companies manage to convince the government they're too big to fail, and get the Boeing, Banks, et al treatment. And I expect that's exactly the current strategy, but that's rather a high risk, low reward, type strategy.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing that 4 of the top 5 are renewables in China.

> As of 2025, The Medog Dam, currently under construction on the Yarlung Tsangpo river in Mêdog County, China, expected to be completed by 2033, is planned to have a capacity of 60 GW, three times that of the Three Gorges Dam.[3] Meanwhile, “drill baby drill!”

Can run the UK and have capacity left over that, if considered alone, would be worlds highest in current year 2025.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#486
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got anything vis-a-vis the message as opposed to the messenger? I'm not sure these examples are even the gotchas you're positing them as. Xerox is a dinosaur that was last relevant at the turn of the century, and IBM is a $300bn company. And if it wasn't obvious, the Apple II never made a dent in the corporate market, while IBM and later Windows PCs did. In any case, these examples are almost half a century old and d…

If it's not obvious, Steve's quote is ENTIRELY about capex ROI, and I feel his quote is more relevant to what is happening today than anything Arvind Krishna is imagining. The quote is posted in my comment not to grandstand Apple in any sense, but to grandstand just how consistently wrong IBM has been about so many opportunities that they have failed to read correctly - reprography, mini computers and microcomputers…

I have no special knowledge about IBM Vs Apple historically, but: a quarter billion in CAPEX when you've earned a billion in revenue in a single year is extremely different to what we're seeing now. These companies are spending all of their free cash flow, then taking on debt, to the tune of percentage points of world GDP, and multiples of any revenue they've seen so far. That kind of oversupply is a sure fire way to kill any ROI.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#487

"It is 1958. IBM passes up the chance to buy a young, fledgling company that has invented a new technology called xerography. Two years later, Xerox is born, and IBM has been kicking themselves ever since. It is ten years later, the late '60s. Digital Equipment DEC and others invent the minicomputer. IBM dismisses the minicomputer as too small to do serious computing and, therefore, unimportant to their business. DEC…

50 year grudges are not relevant there is no one still at ibm that worked there in 1977, IMHO.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#488
post #149
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just the same dynamic as old servers. They still work fine but power costs make them uneconomical compared to latest tech.

That could change with a power generation breakthrough. If power is very cheap then running ancient gear till it falls apart starts making more sense

Hugely unlikely.

Even if the power is free you still need a grid connection to move it to where you need it, and, guess what, the US grid is bursting at the seams. This is not just due to data center demand; it was struggling to cope with the transition away from coal well before that point.

You also can’t buy a gas turbine for love nor money at the moment, and they’re not ever going to be free.

If you plonked massive amounts of solar panels and batteries in the Nevada desert, that’s becoming cheap but it ain’t free, particularly as you’ll still need gas backup for a string of cloudy days.

If you think SMRs are going to be cheap I have a bridge to sell you, you’re also not going to build them right next to your data centre because the NRC won’t let you.

So that leaves fusion or geothermal. Geothermal is not presently “very cheap” and fusion power has not been demonstrated to work at any price.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#489
post #420

As long as the dollar remains the reserve currency of the world and US retains its hegemony, a lot of the finances will work itself out, the only threat to the US empire crumbling is by losing a major war or extreme civil unrest and that threat is astronomically low. The US is orders of magnitude stronger than the Roman Empire, I don't think people realize the scale or control.

Gradually, then suddenly. Best not to underestimate the extent to which the USA has lost trust in the rest of the world, and how actively people and organisations are working to derisk by disengaging. Of course that will neither be easy nor particularly fast, but I'm not certain it can be stopped at this point.

Re: IBM CEO says there is 'no way' spending on AI data centers will pay off

#490
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Products: Search, Gmail, Chrome, Android, Maps, Youtube, Workspace (Drive, Docs, Sheets, Calendar, Meet), Photos, Play Store, Chromebook, Pixel ... not to mention Cloud, Waymo, and Gemini ... Many of those are acquisitions. In-house developed ones tend to be the most marginal on that list, and many of their most visibly high-effort in-house products have been dramatic failures (e.g. Google+, Glass, Fiber).

I was extremely surprised that Google+ didn't catch on. The week before Google+ launched, me and all my friends agreed that Facebook is toast, Google will do the same thing but better, and everyone has a Gmail account so there will be basically zero barrier to entry. Obviously, we were wrong; Google+ managed to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory, Google+ never got significant traction, and Facebook managed to k…

I got early access to Google+ because of where I worked at the time. The invite-only thing had worked great for GMail but unfortunately a social network is useless if no-one else is on it. Then the real names thing and the resulting drumbeat of horror stories like "Google doxxed me to my violent ex-husband" killed what little momentum they had stone dead. I still don't know why they went so hard on that, honestly.
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