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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#481

Post by andy99 »

zahlman wrote: post #216
nothrowaways wrote: post #103

Does speed really matter during python installation?

On my system, Pip takes noticeable time just to start up without ultimately doing anything of importance: $ time pip install ERROR: You must give at least one requirement to install (see "pip help install") real 0m0.356s user 0m0.322s sys 0m0.036s (Huh, that's a slight improvement from before; I guess pip 25.3 is a bit better streamlined.)

lol who is using pip so much that .36s of startup time matters to them? This, if presumably uv can do nothing slightly faster, is an absolutely meaningless benefit

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#482

Post by zmmmmm »

fireflash38 wrote: post #323
zmmmmm wrote: post #260

> Instead of > > source .venv/bin/activate > python myscript.py > > you can just do > > > uv run myscript > This is by far the biggest turn off for me. The whole point of an environment manager is set the environment so that the commands I run work. They need to run natively how they are supposed to when the environment is set, not put through a translation layer. Side rant: yes I get triggered whenever someone tells…

Unless I'm an AI, I'm pretty sure "uv run" is the same number of characters as "python". So it's shorter. Also venvs are a translation layer already, changing path.

it's not really the number of characters so much as the cognitive load of having to do something different here vs there and anything I run successfully on the command line can't be directly lifted over into scripts etc. Along with training a team of people to do that.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#483

Post by ipaddr »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #247
caconym_ wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing I dread more within the general context of software development, broadly , than trying to run other people's Python projects. Nothing. It's shocking that it has been so bad for so long.

Never underestimate cultural momentum I guess. NBA players shot long 2 pointers for decades before people realized 3 > 2. Doctors refused to wash their hands before doing procedures. There’s so many things that seem obvious in retrospect but took a long time to become accepted

People paid 100x more for their hosting when using aws cloud until they realized they never neded 99.97% uptime for their t-shirt business. Oh wait too soon. Save for post for the future.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#484

Post by okanat »

tempay wrote: post #83
gostsamo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I get it, conda is still around because uv is focused on python while conda handles things written in other languages. Unless uv gets much more universal than expected, conda is here to stay.

There is also pixi (which uses uv for the python side of things) which feels like uv for conda.

Pixi is great! It doesn't purely use uv though. I just love it. It solves "creating a repo that runs natively on any developer's PC natively" problem quite well. It handles different dependency trees per OS for the same library too!

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#485

Post by dekhn »

warbaker wrote: post #407
dekhn wrote: post #58

I hadn't paid any attention to rust before uv, but since starting to use uv, I've switched a lot of my performance-sensitive code dev to rust (with interfaces to python). These sorts of improvements really do improve my quality of life significantly. My hope is that conda goes away completely. I run an ML cluster and we have multi-gigabyte conda directories and researchers who can't reproduce anything because just to…

Have you figured out a good way to manage CUDA dependencies with uv?

CUDA is part of our cluster install scripts, we don't manage that with uv or conda. To me, that should be system software that only gets installed once.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#486

Post by collinmanderson »

taeric wrote: post #370
collinmanderson wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has the ecosystem fully moved on to uv, now? It's moving pretty quick. > Do they have good influence on what python's main ecosystem is moving to? Yes, they're an early adaptor/implementer of the recent pyproject.toml standards.

As someone that is fine on poetry for a few things, is there a good pitch deck on why I should change over?

The best pitch deck is spending 5 minutes playing with uv and trying out installing the dependencies for your project.

It’s hard to demonstrate the speed difference in a pitch deck.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#487

Post by dekhn »

okanat wrote: post #479
persedes wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://docs.astral.sh/uv/guides/integration/pytorch/#using-... does that fit the bill?

Not the OP but does this actually package CUDA and the CUDA toolchain itself or just the libraries around it? Can it work only with PyTorch or "any" other library? Conda packaging system and the registry is capable of understanding things like ABI and binary compatibility. It can resolve not only Python dependencies but the binary dependencies too. Think more like dnf, yum, apt but OS-agnostic including Windows. As f…

If I find myself reaching a point where I would need to deal with ABIs and binary compatiblity, I pretty much stop there and say "is my workload so important that I need to recompile half the world to support it" and the answer (for me) is always no.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#488

Post by okanat »

dekhn wrote: post #331
jvanderbot wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory: Not only rust would be faster than python, but Rust definitely makes it easy with Cargo. Go, C, C++ should all exhibit the performance you are seeing in uv, if it had been written in one of those languages. The curmudgeon in me feels the need to point out that fast, lightweight software has always been possible, it's just becoming easier now with package managers.

I've programmed all those languages before (learned C in '87, C++ in 93, Go in 2015 or so) and to be honest, while I still love C, I absolutely hate what C++ has become, Go never appealed to me (they really ignored numeric work for a long time). Rust feels like somebody wanted to make a better C with more standard libraries, without going the crazy path C++ took.

I actually got interested in Rust because its integer types and the core data structures looked sane, instead of this insanity: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/integer.html . Fluid integer types are evil.

I stayed for the native functional programming, first class enums, good parts of C++ and the ultimate memory safety.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#489

Post by 12345hn6789 »

mk89 wrote: post #239
hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

I have used pip freeze > requirements.txt pip install -r requirements.txt Way before "official" lockfile existed. Your requirements.txt becomes a lockfile, as long as you accept to not use ranges. Having this in a single tool etc why not, but I don't understand this hype, when it was basically already there.

Oops, you forgot to sh into you venv and now your env is messed up.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#490

Post by golem14 »

d4mi3n wrote: post #42
LeoPanthera wrote: post #18

For single-file Python scripts, which 99% of mine seem to be, you can simplify your life immensely by just putting this at the top of the script: #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script # /// script # requires-python = ">=3.11" # dependencies = [ "modules", "here" ] # /// The script now works like a standalone executable, and uv will magically install and use the specified modules.

If I were to put on my security hat, things like this give me shivers. It's one thing if you control the script and specified the dependencies. For any other use-case, you're trusting the script author to not install python dependencies that could be hiding all manner of defects or malicious intent. This isn't a knock against UV, but more a criticism of dynamic dependency resolution. I'd feel much better about this i…

""" uv is straightforward to install. There are a few ways, but the easiest (in my opinion) is this one-liner command — for Linux and Mac, it’s:

curl -LsSf https://astral.sh/uv/install.sh | sh """

Also isn't great. But that's how homebrew is installed, so ... shrug ... ?

Not to bash uv/homebrew, they are better than most _easy_ alternatives.

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