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Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

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Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#481

Post by dinvlad »

colechristensen wrote: post #458
bombcar wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My conspiracy theory is that "cloud scaling" was entirely driven by people who grew up watching sites get slash dotted and thought it was the absolute most important thing in the world that you can quickly scale up to infinity billion requests/second.

No, cloud adoption was driven by teams having to wait 2 years for capex for their hardware purchase and then getting a quarter of what they asked for. You couldn't get things, people hoarded servers they pretended to be using because when they did need something they couldn't get it. Management just wouldn't approve budgets so you were stuck using too little hardware. On the cloud it takes five seconds to get a new m…

And now, on cloud it’s the same but much more expensive and worse performance. We’ve been struggling for over a month to get a single (1) non-beefy non-GPU VM allocated on Azure, since they’ve been having insane capacity issues, to the extent that even “provisioned” capacity cannot be fulfilled ;-(

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#482

Post by ozim »

kccqzy wrote: post #314
ozim wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned multiple times in other comments and places people think that doing what Google or FB is doing should be what everyone else is doing. We are running modest operations on European VPS provider where I work and whenever we get a new hire (business or technical does not matter) it is like a Groundhog day - I have to explain — WE ALREADY ARE IN THE CLOUD, NO YOU WILL NOT START "MIGRATING TO CLOUD PROJECT" ON…

> doing what Google or FB is doing Google doesn't even deploy most of its own code to run on VMs. Containers yes but not VMs.

Well I think that’s the point people think if we run VPS and not containers or some app fabric, serverless so PaaS we are “not using real cloud”. But we use IaaS and it is also proper cloud.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#483

Post by dinvlad »

adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

The cloud is also not fulfilling its end of the promise anymore - capacity on-demand. We’ve been struggling for over a month to get a single (1) non-beefy non-GPU instance on Azure, since they’ve been having just insane capacity issues, where even paying for “provisioned” capacity doesn’t make it available.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#484

Post by dinvlad »

jakewins wrote: post #41
breadislove wrote: post #19

Hetzner is really great until you try to scale with them. We started building our service on top of Hetzner and had couple 100s of VMs running and during peak time we had to scale them to over 1000 VMs. And here couple of problems started, you get pretty often IPs which are black listed, so if you try to connect to services hosted by Google, AWS like S3 etc. you can't reach them. Also at one point there were no VMs a…

> Also at one point there were no VMs available anymore in our region, which caused a lot of issues. I'm not sure if this is a difference between other clouds, at least a few years ago this was a weekly or even daily problem in GCP; my experience is if you request hundreds of VMs rapidly during peak hours, all the clouds struggle.

Right now, we can’t request even a single (1) non-beefy non-GPU VM in us-east on Azure. That’s been going on for over a month now, and that’s after being a customer for 2 years :(

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#485

Post by dinvlad »

antonvs wrote: post #235
jakewins wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also at one point there were no VMs available anymore in our region, which caused a lot of issues. I'm not sure if this is a difference between other clouds, at least a few years ago this was a weekly or even daily problem in GCP; my experience is if you request hundreds of VMs rapidly during peak hours, all the clouds struggle.

We launch 30k+ VMs a day on GCP, regularly launching hundreds at a time when scheduled jobs are running. That’s one of the most stable aspects of our operation - in the last 5 years I’ve never seen GCP “struggle” with that except during major outages. At the scale of providers like AWS and even the smaller GCP, “hundreds of VMs” is not a large amount.

Not a single VM possible to request on Azure us-east for over a month now though :-(

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#486

Post by everforward »

colechristensen wrote: post #458
bombcar wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My conspiracy theory is that "cloud scaling" was entirely driven by people who grew up watching sites get slash dotted and thought it was the absolute most important thing in the world that you can quickly scale up to infinity billion requests/second.

No, cloud adoption was driven by teams having to wait 2 years for capex for their hardware purchase and then getting a quarter of what they asked for. You couldn't get things, people hoarded servers they pretended to be using because when they did need something they couldn't get it. Management just wouldn't approve budgets so you were stuck using too little hardware. On the cloud it takes five seconds to get a new m…

I think this is partially that for the past decade or two, on-prem was partially preferred by very frugal companies.

One of the places I worked that was on-prem enforced a "standard hardware profile" where the servers were all nearly the same except things that could be changed in house (like RAM sticks). When they ordered hardware, they'd order like 5% or 10% more than we thought we'd need to keep an "emergency pool".

If you ended up needing more hardware than you thought and could justify why you needed it right now, they'd dip into that pool to give you more hardware on a pretty rapid schedule.

It cost slightly more, but was invaluable. Need double the hardware for a week to do a migration? No problem. Product more popular than you thought? No problem.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#488

Post by fcpk »

In my opinion, this is not always a true thing because size of the needed maintenance team can mean a lot. I find that for small-medium deployments cloud can be a lot more efficient despite being more expensive because it can - take away a lot of the expensive maintenance and management of things like databases, backup, storage, that would otherwise requiring at least a couple more people. So if your bill is <10k/month it certainly isn't worth hiring more people - allow you spin up systems with almost 0 cost(think cloud run / container systems) for very low usage systems. - give you global coverage & distributed reliability that can be otherwise hard to get.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#489

Post by parliament32 »

realitysballs wrote: post #222
adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

Ya but then you need to pay for a team to maintain network and continually secure and monitor the server and update/patch. The salaries of those professionals , really only make sense for a certain sized organization. I still think small-midsized orgs may be better off in cloud for security / operations cost optimization.

If you haven't had to fight network configuration, monitoring, and security in a cloud provider you must have a very simple product. We deploy our product both in colos and on a cloud provider, and in our experience, bare-metal network maintenance and network maintenance in a PaaS consumes about the same number of hours.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#490

Post by traceroute66 »

adamcharnock wrote: post #150

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

> on S3 that is $20-$250 _per second_ on API calls!

It is worth pointing out that if you look beyond the nickle & diming US-cloud providers, you will very quickly find many S3 providers who don't charge you for API calls and just the actual data-shifting.

Ironically, I think one of them is Hetzner's very own S3 service. :)

Other names IIRC include Upcloud and Exoscale ... but its not hard to find with the help of Mr Google, most results for "EU S3 provider" will likely be similar pricing model.

P.S. Please play nicely and remove the spam from the end of your post.

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