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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#481

Post by 15155 »

palata wrote: post #356
blaze33 wrote: post #348

I regularly see similar articles with similar comments here, but there's one thing I still don't understand: From the European Convention on Human Rights[1]: ARTICLE 8 Right to respect for private and family life 1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. 2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as i…

> what is the legal argument solid enough to justify interfering with everybody's right to privacy? "... except such as is in accordance with the law" And the "interfering" coming from ChatControl is that "some algorithm" locally scans and detects illegal material, and doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material. > Watching everyone's communications also seems at odds with the principle of proportionality It'…

> Even though the OS has to "read" your messages in order to print them on your screen.

The phoning home part is the key difference.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#482

Post by ycombigators »

m_dupont wrote: post #448
ycombigators wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

If chat control gets passed it will also be a law, passed by legislation. The point is that laws can be unjust.

Britain isn't in the EU - so, it won't. I'm responding to a point that was made.

"The point is that laws can be unjust."

That's not exactly profound.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#483

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

Is this the latest draft

https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-10131-2025-...

This legislation appears to be aimed at "services" offered to the general public that provide encrypted messaging, particularly the facility to share URLs, images and video

This proposed legislation does not appear to contemplate internet service providers as encrypted chat/messaging service providers

It stands to reason that internet subscribers who do not use encrypted chat services offered to the public by third party intermediaries, aka middlemen, would not be affected by this legislation

The legislation imposes an obligation on encrypted chat service providers, i.e., non-parties to the communication, to scan _someone else's_ private messages

Obviously, this obligation to scan someone else's messages would not apply to internet subscribers communicating with each other peer-to-peer, i.e. it would not apply to the parties to the communication

It is interesting how HN commenters seem to assume that if this legislation were enacted, Europeans would continue to use these third party services, e.g., for planning the next revolution (the top comment is hilarious)

The legislation is only targeting "Big Tech" and wannabe Big Tech "platforms", it is not targeting encryption per se.^1 It is targeting _those companies'_ use of encryption

1. Law enforcement use of encryption is explicitly excluded

It was never a good idea to let "Big Tech" intermediate communication over the internet. These companies are not a source of "privacy". Their "business model" is based on mass surveillance. As mass surveillance data collectors, "Big Tech" is an alluring and easy target for any government, a "one-stop shop" for law enforcement. There is less need for government surveillance when "Big Tech" is doing it for them

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#484

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

palata wrote: post #310
op7 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All communications were unencrypted because encrypting them would have incurred unduly burdensome processing. Nowadays computers can encrypt and decrypt on the fly for virtually free.

Sure. Still people considered themselves free and living in democracies. Why wouldn't it be the case today?

We also didn't have AI models that politicians believed could detect bad behavior on a mass scale. Implementing Stasi level mass surveillance would be very expensive back then, even if there was full access to all communication. Now the proposal is to make a model try to categorize your messages and flag you.

I believe that politicians believe that AI models can do this well without negative consequences. But I also think they forget that a model with 99.99% specificity applied to ten million messages will still falsely label 1000 as harmful.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#485

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

palata wrote: post #318
miroljub wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was unencrypted and “it was fine“ because it was technically nearly impossible to store and process all communications. Now, one small server cluster can analyse all communication channels in a country in real time. The only thing stopping it is the encryption.

Ok, but with ChatControl, you still send your messages encrypted. They are scanned on your device . So all communications aren't stored outside of your device, right?

All falsely flagged communication is. And there will be lots and lots of it, even if it is just a tiny fraction of the total number of messages sent, since the number of messages sent between people is so big. This is the classic problem with statistical methods looking for rare things in large populations which also is why we don't screen everyone for all illnesses all the time - the false positives would do too much harm.

You also will not know if your message is flagged, so if you are ever in doubt about how your message will be categorized, you will have to assume that it will be flagged and sent to storage for an unknown amount of time

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#486

Post by protocolture »

DangitBobby wrote: post #467
protocolture wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My read on the US is that it could be 10 or more, functional independant states, or a single massive mess, and US citizens wake up every day and commit themselves to the mess. Right wingers will look you straight in the eye and tell you that they support suppression of gun rights and speech when it hurts their enemies. Their enemies often live many states away. I have seen the entire country flip on an issue just bec…

The constitution provides no mechanism for dissolution or secession.

Well thats it then. If it isnt written in the documentation, it cant be done.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#487

Post by pests »

palata wrote: post #408
pests wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody would say that your OS is "watching your communications", right? No what? Everyone has been hating on the spying Microsoft has been doing in windows for years. How do you ask this with a straight face.

That's not what I meant. Would you say that a minimal install of Linux or *BSD is "watching your communications"? It has to "read" your data in order to show them to you, but you wouldn't count this as "watching communications" or "surveillance". Siri running locally is not considered "surveillance". The problem is when your data is exfiltrated, which is what you complain about with your Microsoft example. But again…

It’s not what you meant but it’s what you said. I understand what you meant, but others might not. Many people think their phones/computers are watching their communications. This was in response to your ‘Nobody would say that your OS is "watching your communications", right?’, which I cannot agree with as everybody I know says those exact words about android/windows/etc.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#488

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

This is why the right to protected communication, as well as the right to control the software running on general purpose computing devices that you own (i.e. no remote attestation), must be adopted as human rights.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#489

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

simianparrot wrote: post #122
haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

The only real option is to get your country to leave the EU. An unelected cabal of people making sweeping decisions for countless member states isn't democratic, so yeet it while you can.

The UK left, but then their politicians just decided to do their own version of chat control
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